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Post by carlt on May 3, 2016 17:13:16 GMT
Not attacking the person at all. Just defending myself from you putting words ij my mouth. Anyway, at least we are debating now. For example we could just discuss Father Christmas. I wasn't putting words in your mouth I was referring to these words, that came from your fingers. I was agreeing that "god" could be substituted by "Santa", "Thor", "Tooth Fairy" or any other mythical creature. It might as well be "god" though, less letters to type...though "Ra" could be an option for the terminally lazy.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 17:22:41 GMT
It's like most things in life. If you don't try it how can you know for sure? I think some people see having a faith just as a submissive thing when it's actually more like a relationship. How do you know I haven't tried it. It is a well known fact that most atheists have a deeper knowledge of religion than most religious folk. Have you read the bible cover to cover? I have along with the Qu'ran, Book of Mormon, The Vedas (pretty heavy going), many buddhist texts and even a couple of L.Ron Hubbard novels.. Reaching the point where you are satisfied that there is no god involves more than just falling to one's knees claiming to have "seen the light". I have attended many religious services and studied scripture in order to arrive at my conclusions. I also spend many hours discussing religion, politics and other ideologies with one of my closest friends, a C of E vicar who has never once accused me of "preaching from my atheist pulpit". The trouble is that your opening gambit of comparing God with fairies is designed to put the other person on the back foot. Well it works to a degree but you won't get the best out of a discussion that way. What do you want to get out of this discussion? I want to learn and have my views tested so I can get closer to the truth. Whether that's a wise thing to do, I'm not sure TBH. I openly admit I don't know the answers but if you took my last post on board, it's not all about being academic about it either. After all, when our brain has gone, where does that get us?
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Post by loafer on May 3, 2016 17:48:46 GMT
So where is Heaven? Is it North of here? Another galaxy perhaps? Suspended in clouds?
Confused of Fradley.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 17:53:17 GMT
So where is Heaven? Is it North of here? Another galaxy perhaps? Suspended in clouds? Confused of Fradley. That's something I often wonder. I'm not sure I could cope with a happy, smiley, fluffy world. Maybe this life and world was supposed to be heaven until we stuffed it up. Who knows?
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 18:01:53 GMT
That would of course require one to believe that there is a "soul" that continues to exist after death. As an atheist I believe that wasting time asking a mythical figure to save a hypothetical part of me that has no evidence for its existence is quite simply a waste of time and effort. The afterlife is there for those who cannot imagine themselves not existing. I have no knowledge of existing before birth so I am quite capable of accepting that I nor some indefinable part of "I" will no longer exist when my body dies. Yes I believe I have a soul that exists after death, it comforts me. However, the phrase ‘spiritual crutch’ so often used to beat a believer with, disappoints me because it suggests I am somehow weak and unable to live in this world of horror without a fairy tale to cling to. I admit to needing something to support me when I hear of such atrocities in the daily news but because of that backbone then I am able to withstand any amount of derision or attack with equanimity. As for "wasting time” I don’t think I waste any more time being religious than others that might go to a pub, or visit the theatre, or waste time in aimless self indulgence. I still do that too, but believing in God makes me a happier person, and at least to try to make a difference, most of the time anyway. I'm by no means perfect! I too have no knowledge of a time before birth and have no physical certainty of a life after death but because I believe then I see God in everything, and especially in Father Christmas. You touch a nerve with that "spiritual crutch" remark and can I raise the following with you because I have used that term myself to make sense of people always beseeching God to do this and that. You say it disappoints you that the term is used to beat you with because it suggests your somehow weak and need a fairytale to hang onto to get through a world of horror,then in the next sentence you admit to needing something to give you a backbone,a crutch in other words to deal with atrocities etc. So in conclusion unpalatable as the phrase may be a spiritual crutch is just faith by another name.
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Post by Deleted on May 3, 2016 18:34:37 GMT
You touch a nerve with that "spiritual crutch" remark and can I raise the following with you because I have used that term myself to make sense of people always beseeching God to do this and that. You say it disappoints you that the term is used to beat you with because it suggests your somehow weak and need a fairytale to hang onto to get through a world of horror,then in the next sentence you admit to needing something to give you a backbone,a crutch in other words to deal with atrocities etc. So in conclusion unpalatable as the phrase may be a spiritual crutch is just faith by another name. Yes you are quite right, the backbone I mention is just another very similar phrase, but be honest, even if you perhaps didnt mean to, how many might and often do use the term "spiritual crutch" as synonymous with weakness because a believer uses it and so suggest an atheist doesn't and is somehow stronger or wiser? I use it when I reference my other halfs family.They are Indians from Goa which up until the sixties was a Portugese Colony. They were all converted by the Portugese to Catholic as a way of enforcing control,the result being they became ultra catholic if you will excuse the term.They are always putting every problem at Gods door for a remedy which doesn't quite square with my self reliant,self determining existence.Because they approach life this way and lack the acumen to take the bull by the horns so to speak I consider myself more wordly.I appreciate this could be delusion on my part.
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Post by peterboat on May 3, 2016 19:43:34 GMT
When I went to Goa I was peased to see the Catholic church so hard at work helping people, we went to a party for want of better words, and really enjoyed the evening, at the end we paid what we had thought the evening was worth and had seen a whole new side of Goa.
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Post by loafer on May 3, 2016 22:20:32 GMT
Chagall, I think God is a fairytale. But the way you have stood your ground amongst all the God-abuse is admirable. I would be happy to share a bottle of Merlot with you, without even talking about God!
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Post by carlt on May 4, 2016 7:32:08 GMT
That would of course require one to believe that there is a "soul" that continues to exist after death. As an atheist I believe that wasting time asking a mythical figure to save a hypothetical part of me that has no evidence for its existence is quite simply a waste of time and effort. The afterlife is there for those who cannot imagine themselves not existing. I have no knowledge of existing before birth so I am quite capable of accepting that I nor some indefinable part of "I" will no longer exist when my body dies. Yes I believe I have a soul that exists after death, it comforts me. However, the phrase ‘spiritual crutch’ so often used to beat a believer with, disappoints me because it suggests I am somehow weak and unable to live in this world of horror without a fairy tale to cling to. I admit to needing something to support me when I hear of such atrocities in the daily news but because of that backbone then I am able to withstand any amount of derision or attack with equanimity.al certainty of a life after death but because I believe then I see God in everything, and especially in Father Christmas. edit to add...Apologies for the 'preachy' tone or worse seeming to patronise, its a tricky subject to discuss without either sounding sanctimonious or belligerent. Why does believing in the afterlife comfort you? Frankly I find the dismissal of this world in favour of some unknowable maybe quite disturbing. I prefer to live for what I know to be true rather than worship some mythical being in the hope that he will look kindly on me and let me into a mythical afterlife and tend to my mythical soul. It seems to me that favouring the unprovable over what is known is nothing more than a spiritual crutch which is my opinion, by the way, not some tool used to "beat you with". Once again you use inflammatory language to belittle my opinion.
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Post by carlt on May 4, 2016 7:40:33 GMT
Chagall, I think God is a fairytale. But the way you have stood your ground amongst all the God-abuse is admirable. I would be happy to share a bottle of Merlot with you, without even talking about God! Why do you describe it asw "god abuse"? It is strange that when an atheist presents a reasoned argument, looking for evidence and logic they are accused of "abuse", "belittling" and "bullying" because the only real counter argument is "I don't need proof because I have faith". It is not disrespectful to demand a bit higher burden of proof than the faithful can provide, nor is it bullying to not understand how someone can believe in something so powerful yet so coy as to hide its existence yet punish you for not believing. As for god being a fairytale this is not disrespect either because, like religious scripture, fairytales use supernatural beings and miraculous events to set moral rules and ethical values. Some people believe in fairytales too yet the faithful dismiss those people just as enthusiastically as I dismiss all superstition. Don't forget...All who follow the Abrahamic faiths are just one "god" away from atheism.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 4, 2016 8:29:31 GMT
"Why does believing in the afterlife comfort you?" - asks Carlt. I have another question, for everyone. When you are dying, and if you know or suspect that it really is the last moments - what would you like your last thoughts to be? I think this is worth thinking about. I have a fear that, as in the Ghostbusters movie, I'll think of something daft like the Pillsbury Dough Boy:
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Post by naughtyfox on May 4, 2016 8:37:14 GMT
For Chagall, mostly, I think. Evelyn Waugh interview. He took up Catholicism at the age of 28. I was interested to see this as I'm a fan of Brideshead Revisited.
At the end of Episode 5, leaving Brideshead under a cloud, Charles vows: "'I have left behind illusion', I said to myself 'Henceforth I live in a world of three dimensions - with the aid of my five senses.'" Yet adds: "I have since learned that there is no such world . . ."
Here's the interview:
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 8:42:27 GMT
Chagall, I think God is a fairytale. But the way you have stood your ground amongst all the God-abuse is admirable. I would be happy to share a bottle of Merlot with you, without even talking about God! Why do you describe it asw "god abuse"? It is strange that when an atheist presents a reasoned argument, looking for evidence and logic they are accused of "abuse", "belittling" and "bullying" because the only real counter argument is "I don't need proof because I have faith". It is not disrespectful to demand a bit higher burden of proof than the faithful can provide, nor is it bullying to not understand how someone can believe in something so powerful yet so coy as to hide its existence yet punish you for not believing. As for god being a fairytale this is not disrespect either because, like religious scripture, fairytales use supernatural beings and miraculous events to set moral rules and ethical values. Some people believe in fairytales too yet the faithful dismiss those people just as enthusiastically as I dismiss all superstition. Don't forget...All who follow the Abrahamic faiths are just one "god" away from atheism. It seems you are surprised that your views are offensive to those who believe in God so I'll try to explain. As God means a lot to many people (for some everthing) and is as real to them in this life as you and I, righting off God to the fairies is as disrespectful as someones parents being described in the same way. When someone deliberately tries to put someone on the back foot by insulting their beliefs, it shows that they are only entering the discussion for entertainment value. If that's what you want then fine, but I won't be part if it. As I said, I like to learn and have my views challenged, isn't that why most of us are here on this thread? What do you want out of this discussion Carl? Academics still can't fully explain the origins of the universe. They still can't explain what consciousness is. There simply isn't enough information out there to conclusively disprove any faith system yet is seems some athiests seem to be able to right them off just because they are not open to the possibility God exists. Here's a serious question about afterlife. Can you prove that we won't exist again in some form? I think the fact that we are here now from apparently nothing shows it's possible. We might not remember any previous life (some claim they do) but what's to say our soul (or essence) wasn't around before we were born into this physical being?
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Post by loafer on May 4, 2016 9:10:22 GMT
Chagall, I think God is a fairytale. But the way you have stood your ground amongst all the God-abuse is admirable. I would be happy to share a bottle of Merlot with you, without even talking about God! Why do you describe it asw "god abuse"?It is strange that when an atheist presents a reasoned argument, looking for evidence and logic they are accused of "abuse", "belittling" and "bullying" because the only real counter argument is "I don't need proof because I have faith". It is not disrespectful to demand a bit higher burden of proof than the faithful can provide, nor is it bullying to not understand how someone can believe in something so powerful yet so coy as to hide its existence yet punish you for not believing. As for god being a fairytale this is not disrespect either because, like religious scripture, fairytales use supernatural beings and miraculous events to set moral rules and ethical values. Some people believe in fairytales too yet the faithful dismiss those people just as enthusiastically as I dismiss all superstition. Don't forget...All who follow the Abrahamic faiths are just one "god" away from atheism. 'God abuse' was merely my choice of words to Chagall, who has been fending off all of us stoically with her firmly held beliefs, amongst a group of nay-sayers. I found it rather nice that she didn't turn it into a slanging match, merely pointing out that it all added up to personal comfort. That's 'awight' in my book!
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Post by bills on May 4, 2016 9:18:33 GMT
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