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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 14:43:12 GMT
Surprise?? Really?? in an area who's economy is predicated on the nuclear industry. Presumably that was a factor, but it is unusual for a party in Government to win a seat from an opposition party in a by-election, I don't think it has happened since the 1980s. Well as you Brexiteers keep telling us - 'times are a changin' I just don't think anything should surprise us any longer in politics.
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Post by Saltysplash on Feb 24, 2017 14:53:33 GMT
I think UKIP probably threw this away. If they had used a local candidate and not Mr Nuttal they would probably had a better chance. Too much baggage and in fighting with nuttall. They have let themselves down since the referendum due to infighting when they shouldve stuck together and kept picking at Labour and the Torys.
It will take them a while to get back where they left off if at all they can, because if the Torys do a proper job with Brexit, that will lead a lot of their ex-supporters who defected to Ukip back in to their fold.
Labour is in serious trouble and Ukip should be nipping at their heels.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 16:07:23 GMT
I think UKIP probably threw this away. If they had used a local candidate and not Mr Nuttal they would probably had a better chance. Too much baggage and in fighting with nuttall. They have let themselves down since the referendum due to infighting when they shouldve stuck together and kept picking at Labour and the Torys. It will take them a while to get back where they left off if at all they can, because if the Torys do a proper job with Brexit, that will lead a lot of their ex-supporters who defected to Ukip back in to their fold. Labour is in serious trouble and Ukip should be nipping at their heels. I think that with Brexit, the point of UKIP has largely disappeared. The Labour party held Stoke central although as a major political force they are finished too, had they opposed eu membership at the last election then they would almost certainly be in power now. Corbyn is a disaster for them, the man was opposed to the eu for decades until the moment he got a sniff of power whereupon he did a complete about-face.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 24, 2017 17:56:31 GMT
Old Labour has gone, 'New' Labour is Tony's Cronies, Conservatives are fox-hunting and jolly hockey sticks and die if you can't afford a Harley Street doctor, SDP/Liberals = what they? Time for Britain to have some new political parties with real politicians instead of clowns?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 18:35:55 GMT
Labour's problem is that there has been no group more adversely affected by its support of unrestricted eu immigration that its core voter base. There will always be dyed-in-the-wool voters who continue to vote for them "because my Dad always did and his Dad before him" but there are millions of working-class people who have, for over a decade now, watched their living standards fall as wages stagnate and housing becomes ever more unaffordable, and these voters have deserted Labour in droves. Conservatives in red ties are still Conservatives, and one might as well vote for Conservatives who are honest about being Conservatives.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 19:52:18 GMT
Labour's problem is that there has been no group more adversely affected by its support of unrestricted eu immigration that its core voter base. There will always be dyed-in-the-wool voters who continue to vote for them "because my Dad always did and his Dad before him" but there are millions of working-class people who have, for over a decade now, watched their living standards fall as wages stagnate and housing becomes ever more unaffordable, and these voters have deserted Labour in droves. Conservatives in red ties are still Conservatives, and one might as well vote for Conservatives who are honest about being Conservatives. I don't fit the fall in standards bit, but, by and large the party who's beliefs and ideology I associated with has totally imploded. It's almost impossible to take them seriously now, for the first time in my adult life voting is going to present issues - most likely to be solved by abstaining - what a fucking terrible situation for the political landscape of this country to be in
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Post by JohnV on Feb 24, 2017 20:08:57 GMT
Labour's problem is that there has been no group more adversely affected by its support of unrestricted eu immigration that its core voter base. There will always be dyed-in-the-wool voters who continue to vote for them "because my Dad always did and his Dad before him" but there are millions of working-class people who have, for over a decade now, watched their living standards fall as wages stagnate and housing becomes ever more unaffordable, and these voters have deserted Labour in droves. Conservatives in red ties are still Conservatives, and one might as well vote for Conservatives who are honest about being Conservatives. I don't fit the fall in standards bit, but, by and large the party who's beliefs and ideology I associated with has totally imploded. It's almost impossible to take them seriously now, for the first time in my adult life voting is going to present issues - most likely to be solved by abstaining - what a fucking terrible situation for the political landscape of this country to be in It is ....... speaking as someone who is nominally a conservative (with a small "c") I agree. I firmly believe that it is only an opposition party snapping at the heels of a government (of any shade) that stops them from getting too cocky. An unopposed government can go too far down it's extremists manifesto ....... Left or Right.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 20:10:36 GMT
Presumably that was a factor, but it is unusual for a party in Government to win a seat from an opposition party in a by-election, I don't think it has happened since the 1980s. Well as you Brexiteers keep telling us - 'times are a changin' I just don't think anything should surprise us any longer in politics. I bet it was a surprise that both your daughters voted UKIP at the 2016 general election... presumably you can find some reason to justify their actions other than that they are "racists" ?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 20:16:46 GMT
Well as you Brexiteers keep telling us - 'times are a changin' I just don't think anything should surprise us any longer in politics. I bet it was a surprise that both your daughters voted UKIP at the 2016 general election... presumably you can find some reason to justify their actions other than that they are "racists" ? What are you on about? You are trying to be clever but your memory in which they voted the same as you did wasn't the GE. And no it wasnt a surprise given we actually speak to each other.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 20:24:33 GMT
I bet it was a surprise that both your daughters voted UKIP at the 2016 general election... presumably you can find some reason to justify their actions other than that they are "racists" ? What are you on about? You are trying to be clever but your memory in which they voted the same as you did wasn't the GE. And no it wasnt a surprise given we actually speak to each other. I stand corrected- your daughters voted for Brexit.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 20:41:14 GMT
I don't fit the fall in standards bit, but, by and large the party who's beliefs and ideology I associated with has totally imploded. It's almost impossible to take them seriously now, for the first time in my adult life voting is going to present issues - most likely to be solved by abstaining - what a fucking terrible situation for the political landscape of this country to be in It is ....... speaking as someone who is nominally a conservative (with a small "c") I agree. I firmly believe that it is only an opposition party snapping at the heels of a government (of any shade) that stops them from getting too cocky. An unopposed government can go too far down it's extremists manifesto ....... Left or Right. The sad thing is there's no other credible opposition - I've never been able to agree with most of the liberal democrats manifesto pledges, along comes Clegg and for a very short time has a tiny bit of power hanging onto Cameron's coat tails in exchange for selling the soul of the party to the devil. It will take years to undo the damage that caused. UKIP? you've got to be kidding! The greens? They'd be like bunnies caught in the headlamps. I'm Labours biggest issue - for reasons other than those iconoclast stated. My vote is now probably going to remain mine, no longer am I a card carrying party member with fully paid up trade union subs. The utter futility of it all had made me jack the lot in, and without someone like John Smith to regroup and galvanise the grass roots it ain't likely to change anytime soon
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 20:57:23 GMT
It is ....... speaking as someone who is nominally a conservative (with a small "c") I agree. I firmly believe that it is only an opposition party snapping at the heels of a government (of any shade) that stops them from getting too cocky. An unopposed government can go too far down it's extremists manifesto ....... Left or Right. UKIP? you've got to be kidding! Well, as I said earlier, had Labour not contested the 2016 general election on a pro-eu ticket, then they would now be in Government. The vast majority of UKIP's four million votes came from ex-Labour voters such as myself. UKIP forced the eu referendum and for as long as they exist, Labour won't win a general election so it would be futile to dismiss UKIP as ineffectual as a political force, or to swallow the media line about "racism".
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 21:08:58 GMT
UKIP? you've got to be kidding! Well, as I said earlier, had Labour not contested the 2016 general election on a pro-eu ticket, then they would now be in Government. The vast majority of UKIP's four million votes came from ex-Labour voters such as myself. UKIP forced the eu referendum and for as long as they exist, Labour won't win a general election so it would be futile to dismiss UKIP as ineffectual as a political force, or to swallow the media line about "racism". That's the scary thing though - can you imagine then in charge of health, education, transport policy, social welfare, the environment? It's OK hoovering up the votes of disaffected labour voters but come on, a landslide victory for UKIP really would be a can the last person turn the lights off job. Racism doesn't come into it if you've a brain in your head, it's a weak argument put up by the sandal wearing, lentil munching do gooders that have no idea what is actually happening on the ground. I've a foot in two camps - the health service(my wife's field) couldn't function without overseas recruits. The manufacturing and transport industry (my field) is awash with useless second rate wankers - whatever their nationality, all the Eastern Europeans do is drive wages down, on the whole they are no more lazy or feckless than your average homegrown moron.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Feb 24, 2017 21:34:49 GMT
Well, as I said earlier, had Labour not contested the 2016 general election on a pro-eu ticket, then they would now be in Government. The vast majority of UKIP's four million votes came from ex-Labour voters such as myself. UKIP forced the eu referendum and for as long as they exist, Labour won't win a general election so it would be futile to dismiss UKIP as ineffectual as a political force, or to swallow the media line about "racism". That's the scary thing though - can you imagine then in charge of health, education, transport policy, social welfare, the environment? It's OK hoovering up the votes of disaffected labour voters but come on, a landslide victory for UKIP really would be a can the last person turn the lights off job. I would never expect UKIP to win a landslide victory in an election, and it is unlikely that they will have another MP elected, but if they split the Labour vote to the point where Labour simply cannot win an election, and if this forces Labour to go back to its roots, namely to represent the working-class people who are ever-more priced out of work by cheap eastern European labour, then UKIP can only be considered to be a success. I would write to Jeremy Corbyn and explain this to him, but I just know that as a member of the Islington Set, he simply wouldn't listen.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 24, 2017 21:41:12 GMT
That's the scary thing though - can you imagine then in charge of health, education, transport policy, social welfare, the environment? It's OK hoovering up the votes of disaffected labour voters but come on, a landslide victory for UKIP really would be a can the last person turn the lights off job. I would never expect UKIP to win a landslide victory in an election, and it is unlikely that they will have another MP elected, but if they split the Labour vote to the point where Labour simply cannot win an election, and if this forces Labour to go back to its roots, namely to represent the working-class people who are ever-more priced out of work by cheap eastern European labour, then UKIP can only be considered to be a success. I would write to Jeremy Corbyn and explain this to him, but I just know that as a member of the Islington Set, he simply wouldn't listen. But that isn't what will happen. We get the path of least resistance - that's to say most of society that shouldn't be allowed to vote - you know, Jeremy Kyle viewers, EastEnders fans etc will just think 'look at that bunch of oddballs, I'm not voting for them' add a bit of personal agenda from the press and your on a hiding to nothing. Which ultimately means the Tories get an unopposed run for God knows how long Bleak isn't it?
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