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Post by leo326 on Jan 17, 2018 15:43:51 GMT
My daughter is a Nurse, in Canada. Why not in the UK? Simple, the pay. My daughter is a nurse in the UK - what relevance does that have? Quite simple, Medical authorities in other countries pay far better for nurses. Therefore many nurses leave the NHS for better pay. Simple economics. Everything to do with wanting a better life which is not unreasonable. I also read something about bursaries being cut so, once again simple economics, less nurses being trained in the UK. If you are claiming that the NHS is dependent on the EU countries to maintain adequate staffing levels, then it has to be said that any problem with lack of nurses is deeply rooted in the UK. The EU countries are obviously training nurses in excess of their local requirements, but, the UK is failing to do the same.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:46:54 GMT
Your not really grasping the context of my posts are you martin (evident from your attempt to undermine me yet again, this time using ukip). The nhs was built and survives on long term investment. Invested by many of us for decades. Hundreds of thousands suddenly using its resources over a 5 year period having paid fuck all into it will cause strain. The logistics to deal with such numbers were, or never will be in place. That's fuck all to do with UKIP, it's just fact and common sense. Can you evidence that hundreds of thousands of EEA nationals actually used the service please, or is this just more mere anecdotal rhetoric. BTW - The reason I am undermining your argument (and mentioned ukip) is because you are just trotting out the same old stuff they did (and still do). So using your 'you should only get NHS treatment if you have paid into it for a long time' what about UK citizens/residents who never have???. Some EU citizens have paid more towards the NHS in the short time they have been here than some UK citizen's have in their lifetime. Do they just get free NHS care because they are 'British'. Attempting to alter the meaning of my statements, and undermining reality does not help your posts.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:49:04 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:49:47 GMT
Bizarrely when assessing the state of our economy, rather than looking at the NHS I tend towards the money markets.
The FTSE 100 and even the FTSE 250 (UK based) have, despite all predictions, done rather well, and continue to do so.
The people with the money seem to be much more confident than doghouse.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:50:27 GMT
My daughter is a nurse in the UK - what relevance does that have? Quite simple, Medical authorities in other countries pay far better for nurses. Therefore many nurses leave the NHS for better pay. Simple economics. Everything to do with wanting a better life which is not unreasonable. I also read something about bursaries being cut so, once again simple economics, less nurses being trained in the UK. If you are claiming that the NHS is dependent on the EU countries to maintain adequate staffing levels, then it has to be said that any problem with lack of nurses is deeply rooted in the UK. The EU countries are obviously training nurses in excess of their local requirements, but, the UK is failing to do the same. Most of the nurses I know who have left for a better lifestyle (Australia in the cases I know). You are correct though the UK NHS has become too reliant on nurses who trained elsewhere, and because of that we should be giving the EU nurses (and some other professions) already here some security about what will happen post Brexit. It is not their fault they have been thrust into a very uncertain future. The bursaries issue is an interesting one, they have indeed been abolished but that has merely brought nursing into line with other NHS professions, the argument nursing should be treated differently in light of recruitment difficulties in that particular pressure is gaining momentum.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:51:30 GMT
Can you evidence that hundreds of thousands of EEA nationals actually used the service please, or is this just more mere anecdotal rhetoric. BTW - The reason I am undermining your argument (and mentioned ukip) is because you are just trotting out the same old stuff they did (and still do). So using your 'you should only get NHS treatment if you have paid into it for a long time' what about UK citizens/residents who never have???. Some EU citizens have paid more towards the NHS in the short time they have been here than some UK citizen's have in their lifetime. Do they just get free NHS care because they are 'British'. Attempting to alter the meaning of my statements, and undermining reality does not help your posts. Exactly where do you think I have done that? I asked a straightforward question, why not just answer it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:54:18 GMT
Bizarrely when assessing the state of our economy, rather than looking at the NHS I tend towards the money markets. The FTSE 100 and even the FTSE 250 (UK based) have, despite all predictions, done rather well, and continue to do so. The people with the money seem to be much more confident than doghouse. Rog Oh I have no doubt there are going to be some 'winners' from all of this, don't get me wrong. It wont be the likes of you and I though.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:56:00 GMT
Stay or leave the NHS will still be in a shit state, government cuts to funding, people growing older and needing to use it more, growing number of non uk born people using it.
The infrastructure has not matched the uk in terms of growth.
But crazy cat lady in No10 says its all ok, so it must be!
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:57:25 GMT
This from NMC; the increasing number of nurses leaving the nhs October 2016 to September 2017 UK 29,019
Europe 4,067
Rest of the world 2,277
Total 35,363.
Now given those figures, I would not say it's a brexit issue. The majority being initially english registered.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 15:58:13 GMT
There is no shame or disgrace in making money.
What you do with it is the measure.
Before anyone can fairly distribute wealth, it has to be created.
All I was suggesting is that the NHS is not the best measure of our economy's health.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:31:52 GMT
This from NMC; the increasing number of nurses leaving the nhs October 2016 to September 2017 UK 29,019 Europe 4,067 Rest of the world 2,277 Total 35,363. Now given those figures, I would not say it's a brexit issue. The majority being initially english registered. If you look at pure numbers you miss the point NHS Digital were showing in the graph I posted. For the first time the number of EU nurses leaving the UK exceeds the number of EU Nurses coming here. That only happened after the referendum. If it was only down to poor working conditions etc then I would suggest we would have seen such a trend prior to the referendum result as Nurses have been complaining about conditions/lack of resources in the NHS since I started back in 1977. That is certainly not a new issue, but Brexit is.
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Post by thebfg on Jan 17, 2018 16:32:45 GMT
Which bit of brexit are the nurses uncertain about to make them feel unwelcome and to return home.
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Post by thebfg on Jan 17, 2018 16:40:21 GMT
On what planet do the signs seem positive. You must be smoking better stuff than me... Indeed. Just one example in today's news. For the sake of clarity can we have the same graph for UK nurses and one for non e.u nurses. See if there is a trend that has nothing to do with where they are from, or not as the case may be.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:41:38 GMT
This from NMC; the increasing number of nurses leaving the nhs October 2016 to September 2017 UK 29,019 Europe 4,067 Rest of the world 2,277 Total 35,363. Now given those figures, I would not say it's a brexit issue. The majority being initially english registered. If you look at pure numbers you miss the point NHS Digital were showing in the graph I posted. For the first time the number of EU nurses leaving the UK exceeds the number of EU Nurses coming here. That only happened after the referendum. If it was only down to poor working conditions etc then I would suggest we would have seen such a trend prior to the referendum result as Nurses have been complaining about conditions/lack of resources in the NHS since I started back in 1977. That is certainly not a new issue, but Brexit is. The figures given by the very organisation you have chosen to use within your argument, show overwhelmingly that brexit is not the predominant reason for nurses leaving the nhs. Job done.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2018 16:42:58 GMT
Which bit of brexit are the nurses uncertain about to make them feel unwelcome and to return home. I can only speak first hand regarding the ones I know of or know. They speak of great uncertainty about their future here in this country and a general feeling of no longer feeling welcome in the UK. Now of course some will dismiss that as 'poppy cock' or 'rubbish' but that none the less that is how they feel. They also feel a continued lack of guaranteed employment rights post March 2019 could mean a sudden influx of EU nurses back to EU countries (if no guarantee is given) could mean a sudden clamour for jobs back home. So they would rather secure a job now that have to fight for one later.
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