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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 14:43:40 GMT
What!!! A few people on the ground died - a community was not anywhere near wiped out. I know Lockerbie fairly well (and some of the families who still live there) so forgive me if I start going into rant mode. I was living in a town well north of Lockerbie, and it was 7.00pm, I was sitting in front of the gas fire on brown carpet. It was a world changing event, like the assassination of JFK which I heard about on my Ferguson radio at 6.00 pm, in my bedroom, doing homework. I could not go past Lockerbie for years without a shiver. It's a medical condition called "shock", post traumatic stress disorder etc. That was terrorism, not "carelessness"
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Post by naughtyfox on Mar 8, 2019 16:04:59 GMT
The Americans did it - and a Libyan took the fall for it. Someone may spill the beans before they croak.
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Post by bodger on Mar 8, 2019 19:59:08 GMT
how can an experienced pilot blame high G forces causing him to lose control, and not be found responsible for failing to identify the risk during his pre-flight safety evaluation, and moreover to making the loop in the vicinity of a public road?
surely the avoidance of such risks is fundamental to being a professional pilot.
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Post by Telemachus on Mar 8, 2019 20:15:36 GMT
how can an experienced pilot blame high G forces causing him to lose control, and not be found responsible for failing to identify the risk during his pre-flight safety evaluation, and moreover to making the loop in the vicinity of a public road? surely the avoidance of such risks is fundamental to being a professional pilot. G forces can affect the same person differently on different days. When I was a yoof (aged about 20) in the university air squadron on summer camp (ie on an actual RAF base) I did what everyone did which was to get pissed the night before in the officers’ mess on cheap booze. Then went flying on a solo aerobatics sortie, pretty hung over. Pulled about 4g and had a black-out, which was weird - vision just disappearing from the periphery to the centre until no vision left. Completely blind, and upside down. Not a good combination. Managed to get the g off and vision returned but I felt like death. Had to float around for 30 mins before attempting a landing, otherwise I think I would have crashed. Lesson learnt! But the point is that, whilst Andy probably wasn't hung over, he might have had some other minor ailment which left him intolerant to high g. And the point is that this MIGHT have been a factor, it couldn’t be disproved and with the high bar required for criminal prosecution (beyond reasonable doubt) he had to be acquitted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2019 20:55:01 GMT
I'm not sure when he was pulling G which caused confusion, seemed to me he was too low when he started the manoevre, nothing to do with G at the start. I may be wrong. perhaps he had this G problem before this final manoevre, if so, he should not have started it.
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Post by Telemachus on Mar 8, 2019 21:49:47 GMT
I'm not sure when he was pulling G which caused confusion, seemed to me he was too low when he started the manoevre, nothing to do with G at the start. I may be wrong. perhaps he had this G problem before this final manoevre, if so, he should not have started it. As I understand it, the missed "gate" (speed/height combination (ie energy)), which was the key mistake, was at the top of the loop, upside down. The correct recovery would have been to roll out of it, as opposed to pulling through to complete the loop. At the top of the loop one has already pulled quite hard to get around the first 1/2 of the loop. And what he was doing prior to that, not sure.
He was getting on a bit age-wise, for a fast jet pilot. Maybe something age-related? But the point is not that I or the court think it was a likely reason, just that it was a possible excuse and thus gross negligence can't be proven beyond reasonable doubt.
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Post by bodger on Mar 9, 2019 8:42:40 GMT
doesn't explain why this potentially risky manouevre was attempted close to a main road.
his judgement when planning his flight was faulty, despite any other conditions he may have experienced.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Mar 9, 2019 9:05:48 GMT
I can't help feeling that if I was involved in an incident caused entirely by my misjudgement whilst driving an articulated lorry, in which 11 people died, that there would be no excuse imaginable which would save me from serving a long stretch in chokey. Perhaps being posh mitigates negligence?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 9:21:56 GMT
I suppose the deaths understandably corrupt any sense of balance in judgement.
Recklessness requires some foresight of possible outcomes with evidence of that knowledge being dismissed/ignored.
The fact there were deaths is not enough.
Rog
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Post by thebfg on Mar 9, 2019 9:40:55 GMT
I mean this in a respectful way but I dont understand when someone is let off. The families are all claiming to have been let down by the justice system.
They are all upset that there is no justice.
What difference does it make. Is it one of those things where we are so used to hearing that people who have been killed can now be left on peace once the killer is jailed etc etc. That it's now normal.
It was tragic incident or am I just being cold hearted.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 9:46:57 GMT
Justice is that the evidence has been examined thoroughly and impartially.
That, I'm afraid, isn't what the families mean by justice ... they been retribution.
Emotions are powerful, and I'm never entirely convinced of the motives of media in giving oxygen to, understandably, distraught family and friends in cases of this nature.
Rog
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Post by JohnV on Mar 9, 2019 10:06:37 GMT
Often it's not really anyone's "fault". Lots of things we do have risks involved and sometimes the four bells come up and it's curtains.
Hard to accept when it happens to you or yours but unfortunately shit happens .... Life can be a dangerous business, however much the Nanny State and it's supporters try, there will always be casualties. If you remove all the risk from life then you also remove all the excitement, fun and the things that make life worth living.
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Post by carthorse on Mar 9, 2019 10:55:26 GMT
If the pilots being truthful when he says he has no memory now of the flight nobody will ever know for sure what happened. And as these aircraft don’t have the sophisticated recording equipment modern ones do it makes assessing the aftermath of events such as these much harder. Deep down I’m sure after reviewing the footage and what data there is available he knows he probably made a error of judgement, then a terrible mistake in not aborting the display manoeuvre before it was too late. He’ll have to live with that for the rest of his days, as will all the relatives of those who died.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 10:59:06 GMT
I can't help feeling that if I was involved in an incident caused entirely by my misjudgement whilst driving an articulated lorry, in which 11 people died, that there would be no excuse imaginable which would save me from serving a long stretch in chokey. Perhaps being posh mitigates negligence? The Glasgow Bin Lorry driver thought he was OK to continue driving as though nothing had happened. . He killed six bystanders. He had previously blacked out while driving a bus, but lied on his paperwork to his new employers. He continued to drive both with and without a licence, and got community duties, people are not all alike, remorse and guilt for some, is not the same as for others, that's why there is a criminal justice system, but it is fallible. www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/scottish-news/2003923/when-was-the-glasgow-bin-lorry-crash-and-who-is-harry-clarke/I believe the employers have paid some compensation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2019 11:32:45 GMT
Thank you Mr Fox, I think one post [MY POST] covered the storyline. You could have shown the photo of him with his "carryout", getting out of his car.
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