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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 16, 2019 0:13:28 GMT
There's a thread running over on CWDF titled "Keadby to West Stockwith", and, depending on whether or not tomorrow morning's tide makes predicted height at Hull and how much extra fresh comes on in the Trent during the night, the poor sod (MHS) who thought that he could rely on getting some sound advice on tomorrow's passage up to Stockwith from Keadby could well be in for something of a bad time.
According to the last but one post he made he's been advised by the duty lock keeper of a - "Departure time of 08.15." - and he's said - "That sounded sensible after researching it. High tide is 09.23.". However, with over 4', and rising, of fresh bailing downriver through Gainsborough at the moment, that's far too late to be leaving Keadby tomorrow morning.
HW at Hull is predicted for 0824 BST tomorrow which means it will be flowing (running-up/Flood) at Keadby by about 0630 or very soon after. With the amount of fresh that's coming downriver, however, that tide won't be running-up anything like as far as usual or for anything like as long as usual. He wants to get the best possible amount of help from the tide up to Stockwith, but also wants to get there just when the tide is beginning to drop slack.
It's never easy to accurately predict just how much big quantities of fresh will slow down the rate the Flood runs up at, but I wouldn't be hanging around at Keadby until 0815, which will probably be a good bit more than half-tide there tomorrow morning. To avoid the chances of having a long, slow slog under Ebb up to Stockwith from around Kelfield or Owston Ferry, and having to get into Stockwith Lock with a stronger than usual Ebb running down, I suggest he should be out of Keadby Lock and on his way by 0715 at the very latest.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 16, 2019 7:55:12 GMT
There's a thread running over on CWDF titled "Keadby to West Stockwith", and, depending on whether or not tomorrow morning's tide makes predicted height at Hull and how much extra fresh comes on in the Trent during the night, the poor sod ( MHS) who thought that he could rely on getting some sound advice on tomorrow's passage up to Stockwith from Keadby could well be in for something of a bad time. According to the last but one post he made he's been advised by the duty lock keeper of a - "Departure time of 08.15." - and he's said - "That sounded sensible after researching it. High tide is 09.23.". However, with over 4', and rising, of fresh bailing downriver through Gainsborough at the moment, that's far too late to be leaving Keadby tomorrow morning. HW at Hull is predicted for 0824 BST tomorrow which means it will be flowing (running-up/Flood) at Keadby by about 0630 or very soon after. With the amount of fresh that's coming downriver, however, that tide won't be running-up anything like as far as usual or for anything like as long as usual. He wants to get the best possible amount of help from the tide up to Stockwith, but also wants to get there just when the tide is beginning to drop slack. It's never easy to accurately predict just how much big quantities of fresh will slow down the rate the Flood runs up at, but I wouldn't be hanging around at Keadby until 0815, which will probably be a good bit more than half-tide there tomorrow morning. To avoid the chances of having a long, slow slog under Ebb up to Stockwith from around Kelfield or Owston Ferry, and having to get into Stockwith Lock with a stronger than usual Ebb running down, I suggest he should be out of Keadby Lock and on his way by 0715 at the very latest. Having only done that trip once, earlier this year and with only moderate fresh, I didn’t feel qualified to advise. But it does seem obvious that it would be better to leave earlier rather than later. Arriving with some flood still running and having to hold for a while, is a much better situation than hitting a strong ebb before arriving and having to slog the last few miles at high power against the flow. Unfortunately your advice came too late to pass on. Anyway, we shall no doubt get a report later today. |
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 16, 2019 7:59:16 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question).
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Post by peterboat on Oct 16, 2019 8:30:52 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question). I put Sabina into Stockwith without touching the sides, we arrived at exactly on the slack, however if its moving its the same as Selby except its not as stepped back as much and its on the outside of a slight bend. Tony is right, if you arrive to early like we did just drift down, which is better than forcing the current |
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Post by ianali on Oct 16, 2019 8:32:14 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question). I will be interested to hear the answer to this. When we passed this entrance earlier this year, it did look like an awkward place to enter. |
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Post by JohnV on Oct 16, 2019 9:10:33 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question). I put Sabina into Stockwith without touching the sides, we arrived at exactly on the slack, however if its moving its the same as Selby except its not as stepped back as much and its on the outside of a slight bend. Tony is right, if you arrive to early like we did just drift down, which is better than forcing the current seconded ...... it was a nice quiet entrance ..... especially when you remember that we were near the maximum dimensions  |
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 16, 2019 11:21:39 GMT
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 16, 2019 11:59:04 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question). It really can't be said that either one out of the two Trent side-locks, Keadby and Stockwith, is harder or easier than the side-lock off the Ouse at Selby because the ease, or difficulty, that can come with getting into any of them is so dependent on so many variables, . . all or any of which can change dramatically over a very short period of time. As far as today goes, MHS will almost certainly have to cope with an unnecessarily difficult first time into Stockwith Lock, . . courtesy of the piss poor advice that get dished out via the C&RT-CWDF partnership ! |
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 16, 2019 12:01:10 GMT
Anyway, is the entry to W Stockwith significantly harder than Selby? (Genuine, not rhetorical question). It really can't be said that either one out of the two Trent side-locks, Keadby and Stockwith, is harder or easier than the side-lock off the Ouse at Selby because the ease, or difficulty, that can come with getting into any of them is so dependent on so many variables, . . all or any of which can change dramatically over a very short period of time. As far as today goes, MHS will almost certainly have to cope with an unnecessarily difficult first time into Stockwith Lock, . . courtesy of the piss poor advice that get dished out via the C&RT-CWDF partnership ! He did at least manage to enter the lock without hitting it. But 45 mins fighting the ebb wasn’t ideal. |
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 16, 2019 13:01:32 GMT
I'm glad they've got there OK, . . but it could have been a very different story if the boat had been one of the many canal boats with machinery that struggles to make only around 4 knots on the river and quickly overheats in the process. |
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 17, 2019 8:11:22 GMT
According to the last but one post he made he's been advised by the duty lock keeper of a - "Departure time of 08.15." - and he's said - "That sounded sensible after researching it. High tide is 09.23.". However, with over 4', and rising, of fresh bailing downriver through Gainsborough at the moment, that's far too late to be leaving Keadby tomorrow morning. HW at Hull is predicted for 0824 BST tomorrow which means it will be flowing (running-up/Flood) at Keadby by about 0630 or very soon after. With the amount of fresh that's coming downriver, however, that tide won't be running-up anything like as far as usual or for anything like as long as usual. He wants to get the best possible amount of help from the tide up to Stockwith, but also wants to get there just when the tide is beginning to drop slack. It's never easy to accurately predict just how much big quantities of fresh will slow down the rate the Flood runs up at, but I wouldn't be hanging around at Keadby until 0815, which will probably be a good bit more than half-tide there tomorrow morning. To avoid the chances of having a long, slow slog under Ebb up to Stockwith from around Kelfield or Owston Ferry, and having to get into Stockwith Lock with a stronger than usual Ebb running down, I suggest he should be out of Keadby Lock and on his way by 0715 at the very latest. Some 'real time' graphs showing yesterday morning's Trent tide times and heights for Keadby and Gainsborough are available this morning from the EA's river level recorder gauges. All times given below are BST. Hull HW on Wednesday 16 October's morning tide was 0824 and the gauge at Keadby recorded Flood there at 0625 and (local) HW at 0855. The time of Flood was pretty much as would be expected that far downriver and with the known quantity of fresh that was coming down for the predicted height of that tide at Hull, but Keadby HW was a good 35 - 40 minutes early at 0855, which given the quantity of fresh coming downriver at the time, was eminently predictable and entirely in line with the way the Trent tides have been behaving since God was a lad ! A 'fresh' induced early HW at Keadby does of course have a known and predictable knock-on effect on the times and the rate of the Flood, the time of High Water, and the time of the first of the Ebb, all the way up to Cromwell, and I estimate that HW at Stockwith (in terms of river/tide level) would have been at around 0930-0940 at the latest, followed immediately without the usual 'stand' of 10 - 15 minutes of HW 'slack', by the first of a much swifter than normal rate of the Ebb. The fresh in the river would have had the effect causing the 10 - 15 minute 'stand' of slack to come before local HW instead of afterwards. Given that the combined effect of the fresh and the morning tide at Hull on Tuesday 15 October was sufficient to cause the river level at Cromwell to rise close enough to the height of the weir crest well before what would normally have been local (Cromwell) HW and to back up the river above Cromwell Weir enough to register a small rise on the EA recorder gauge nearly 3 x miles upriver at Muskham Ferry from shortly after 1100 on that morning, it does beg the question as to why the C&RT staff at Keadby were, apparently, oblivious to the prevailing conditions in the Trent on Tuesday the 15th, were unable to predict the effect those prevailing conditions would have on the next day's tides, and why the pleasure boaters who booked to go out at Keadby the next day, Wednesday the 16th, were given such lousy advice and then sent on their way an hour later than they should have been ? |
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 19, 2019 19:40:16 GMT
The bloke (MHS) who was sent on on his way to Stockwith from Keadby an hour later than he should have been last Wednesday (16 Oct) has just posted this over on CWDF :
"To be fair, the Trent was all on red boards. We knew that this was only a trip to be done with a decent boat and experienced crew. There was loads of fresh and he hadn’t seen the tide change to incoming as it would have been dark and before their shift started.
We made it fine, but it would have been less stressful if we’d been out 30-60 minutes earlier. I definitely wouldn’t have fancied fouling our prop on the trip."
. . . which, 'to be fair', makes no sense at all !
There aren't any ''red boards'' at Keadby, . . with a tide range of around 16' or more on Springs, they aren't really very much use, and whether or not the duty lock keeper - "hadn't seen the tide change to incoming" - isn't at all relevant because Flood at Keadby that morning arrived within 5 minutes of the time that could be, and was, predicted from the published/predicted time of the next High Water at Hull (see post above).
Why are so many people so anxious to excuse these useless lock keepers and their even more useless employers ? So far there haven't been any really serious incidents as a direct consequence of the crap advice that C&RT tidal lick staff routinely dish out, . . but the luck is bound to run out one day !
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 19, 2019 19:46:12 GMT
Surely if incorrect advice has been given in this case, then it has been given by the local lock keeper rather than by CRT as an organisation?
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 19, 2019 20:01:17 GMT
When we head down the Trent (July 2023) I shall look up Tony's comments on the Trent (surely they'll be preserved on the Inter-web-thingy somewhere) and play and plan with his advice, and my own judgement made from research from other sources.
Although, by 2023, I expect Global Warming to have dried the River Trent so we may have to walk it. Or it will be infested with Polar Bears. Never mind, we have a barge pole with which to poke 'em in the eye!
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 20, 2019 8:58:12 GMT
When we head down the Trent (July 2023) I shall look up Tony's comments on the Trent (surely they'll be preserved on the Inter-web-thingy somewhere) and play and plan with his advice, and my own judgement made from research from other sources. I don't know what 'other sources' you've got in mind, Ross, but you'll be very hard pressed to find anyone else who can advise from the standpoint of years of practical experience of operating commercial vessels on the lower Trent, the Ouse, and the Humber. There is no other way than living and working on them on a daily basis to get to know how the tides and the weather affect of tidal rivers, and most of the boatmen, bargemen and tug skippers I worked with and learned my trade from are either retired or long dead by now. Even as recently as the late 1980's the majority of the lock keepers at tidal locks were ex-boatmen/bargemen, but nowaday's there aren't any of them left to employ as lock keepers and this is the main reason why so much crap advice gets dished out to pleasure craft. It's a very good example of the blind leading the blind ! |
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