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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 20:03:38 GMT
So would I but was the fine waived if the migrants were dead? See above. Which of course is just my non legally qualified opinion.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 23, 2019 20:11:38 GMT
On the news a few years ago that drivers caught coming through Dover were automatically assumed guilty if migrants were found, even if the migrants had forced their way in. I remember Stabby commenting at length. Maybe this has changed now. I would think in this case it will depend on the investigation. The 'higher' charge and conviction would be murder which he may or may not be charged and convicted of. If he is not found guilty of murder he could still be found guilty of being involved in people trafficking, whether or not the people he was trafficking died in the process or not. Even if he is complicit it wouldn't be murder. Murder is a very specific charge which requires Mens Rea. If he was complicit in people smuggling and his actions led to their deaths then manslaughter is the most he could be convicted of.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 20:20:10 GMT
I would think in this case it will depend on the investigation. The 'higher' charge and conviction would be murder which he may or may not be charged and convicted of. If he is not found guilty of murder he could still be found guilty of being involved in people trafficking, whether or not the people he was trafficking died in the process or not. Even if he is complicit it wouldn't be murder. Murder is a very specific charge which requires Mens Rea. If he was complicit in people smuggling and his actions led to their deaths then manslaughter is the most he could be convicted of. It begs the question why this is the reason he has been held on suspicion of the more serious offence. I suppose they 'aim high' given he appears to have been found with 39 corpses in his trailer. They can always wind down the charge later if he proves to have been simply complicit.
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 20:52:28 GMT
I'll find a report but it is suggested the driver only had the trailer on for half an hour and has been released.
As somerfield we did unaccompanied crossings. They would drop 10 trailers of at southampton and red funnel would deliver to the stores on the island, putting them on night crossings and getting cheap prices.
Once they dropped them off they would pick up the empty returned trailers.
Dont know why coop think it's a good idea to have up to 10 lorries crossing every day, paying premium prices and having drivers sat around for up to 3 hours doing nothing. It's not unheard of for drivers to run out of hours and have to stay over.
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 20:55:03 GMT
Even if he is complicit it wouldn't be murder. Murder is a very specific charge which requires Mens Rea. If he was complicit in people smuggling and his actions led to their deaths then manslaughter is the most he could be convicted of. It begs the question why this is the reason he has been held on suspicion of the more serious offence. I suppose they 'aim high' given he appears to have been found with 39 corpses in his trailer. They can always wind down the charge later if he proves to have been simply complicit. I think, (like I think we said on the cop killer thread l) like you say they aim high and start doing deals for lesser offences. Normally the cps wouldn't let them charge people with offences that they will never be convicted of, I don't know why murder gets different treatment.
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 20:58:27 GMT
I would think in this case it will depend on the investigation. The 'higher' charge and conviction would be murder which he may or may not be charged and convicted of. If he is not found guilty of murder he could still be found guilty of being involved in people trafficking, whether or not the people he was trafficking died in the process or not. Even if he is complicit it wouldn't be murder. Murder is a very specific charge which requires Mens Rea. If he was complicit in people smuggling and his actions led to their deaths then manslaughter is the most he could be convicted of. to be pedantic is it not with malice aforethought rather than mens rea?
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 23, 2019 20:58:29 GMT
I'm just wondering, if the people in question died because the driver miscalculated the available oxygen, forgot to turn off the fridge unit or something similar would this be a murder charge? I thought murder needed intent. Would it not be manslaughter? Oops Stabby seems to have already confirmed this.
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 21:02:48 GMT
I'm just wondering, if the people in question died because the driver miscalculated the available oxygen, forgot to turn off the fridge unit or something similar would this be a murder charge? I thought murder needed intent. Would it not be manslaughter? If he knew they were in there, I am sure they would go for murder. One of the bars for murder is. Reckless indifference to an unjustifiably high risk to human life (sometimes described as an "abandoned and malignant heart"), Would that cover seriously fucking up that it killed 39 people?
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 21:10:11 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2019 21:22:05 GMT
I'll find a report but it is suggested the driver only had the trailer on for half an hour and has been released. Yes. The BBC reported the time between him collecting the trailer and the bodies being found was just 35 minutes.
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Post by thebfg on Oct 23, 2019 22:06:39 GMT
I'll find a report but it is suggested the driver only had the trailer on for half an hour and has been released. Yes. The BBC reported the time between him collecting the trailer and the bodies being found was just 35 minutes. Good. I suppose he was only arrested to enable a quick and full investigation, or whatever they say. I guess they just wanted to check he was not part of the smuggling ring.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 23, 2019 22:19:05 GMT
In that case it sounds well over the top for the police to state "we are holding a man on suspicion of murder"
Poor bloke.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 24, 2019 5:47:11 GMT
It's not unusual for a driver not to know what is inside a trailer, but what is unusual is that he has driven a short distance from the dock, gone off-route, and then opened the rear doors, normally there would be no reason to do this, rather you would drive to your delivery point and open the doors there.
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Post by patty on Oct 24, 2019 5:54:11 GMT
It's not unusual for a driver not to know what is inside a trailer, but what is unusual is that he has driven a short distance from the dock, gone off-route, and then opened the rear doors, normally there would be no reason to do this, rather you would drive to your delivery point and open the doors there. Maybe thats the reason he was arrested on suspicion... what a terrible shock for him. I do hope, if he's in the know he co-operates fully and they get the the ones responsible for this awful tragedy. We can all speculate..its what we do well. It keeps a topic alive until facts are known and then gives us more food for perusal.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 24, 2019 6:54:36 GMT
It's not unusual for a driver not to know what is inside a trailer, but what is unusual is that he has driven a short distance from the dock, gone off-route, and then opened the rear doors, normally there would be no reason to do this, rather you would drive to your delivery point and open the doors there. Exactly. As I have already pointed out, many details are missing. Who called the Police & ambulance? If the driver knew there were people inside the trailer-container (whatever!), and went to let them out and discovered they'd all snuffit.... what then..? You'd think that if he were complicit int he whole scheme he'd have shut the doors pronto and disposed of them elsewhere. The problem is, the Police read text messages. A phone call to his gang leaders (employer?) could be one answer, or a WhatsApp (encrypted) message? If the truck driver is innocent, why did he open the doors (did he open them?) - and what would he then think if he suspected his employer was in on it... what to do.... panic and call the cops and hope your employer doesn't come crashing down on you (if the employer was in on it). For now, without details, I'd assume both truck driver and employer are innocent.... and the truck driver just 'discovered' bodies in the container/unit and calling the cops is the natural thing to do. Ambulance, too, just in case. But here it all hinges, just how did the truck driver 'discover' his gruesome cargo? If the truck driver was 'in' on this, it could be that he was persuaded to co-operate, ie. "We'll kill your girlfriend/elderly mum/pet cat if you don't do this, and we'll richly reward you anyway" type of thing? It seems out of place, this driver being proud of his vehicle and having Facebookings and Twitterings about it. Roped into this, joined voluntarily, or completely unawares?
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