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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 23:23:59 GMT
When the victron stops charging them. Tail current about 3.3 Is the voltage up around 14.6 in summer and 14.8 in winter (or more) with the current at 3.3A? I ask because Victrons, if set to “adaptive charging”, are prone to going to float much too early. If you are charging from a generator it is better to disable float mode (by raising its voltage to be the same as absorption) so you decide when to stop charging, not the Victron. Or if that is too difficult, restart the charge when it goes to float (disconnect, then reconnect the generator) and if the charge current is fairly high again, you know it went to float much too early. I noted the adaptive charge facility the other day. I had initiated it when we were in for blacking during October on hook up, and forgot to shut it off when we left. It's off now.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 13, 2020 23:27:11 GMT
Chatting to some on fb with newer trojans, they seem to be having similar issues. I'm wondering if cost cutting is responsible at manufacture, or even Chinese fakes are slipping into the market. Those with older ones (5 years) seem to be trundling along fine. All a bit odd. Yea could be I suppose. A bit like Yuasa, which used to be really good and are now fairly crap. When our Trojans die, I’ll be going to LiFePO4. I toyed with lifepoo, but to be honest, the boat will be sold this year, so I'm not up for a heavy investment. Maybe stick a cheaper set of t-105s in, or some agm's.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 8:43:40 GMT
Well, my six t105's lasted just over three years. Waste of money (and energy looking after them). I'm not up for peeing about with lifepoos, so I think I'll try some agm batteries. Well my theory is that unless you get to regularly trickle charge the batteries up to the last 1-2 percent (as one would if they had access to a shore line most nights) you lose that 1-2 percent and your battery effectively gets smaller each time you don't. I think you'll find most people who never have access to a shore line complain that their batteries only last a couple of years at most. Been there done it with banks of expensive traction batteries and Trojans. The engine starter battery last a lot longer because they only lose about 1 percent on cranking which gets charged back up by the engine quite quickly. I know 'leisure batteries' are supposed to have thicker plates to handle deep discharging but at least one bit of research I found showed that many are just rebranded starter batteries when cut open (caravan club I think). Lithium batteries are a good solution but even thay have a maximum number of life cycles (and are bloody expensive). I now just use a single starter battery as a leisure battery for about £70 which I can easily take out every so often to boost it overnight at someone's house when I can. It's a much cheaper option, but then again I have a gas fridge, no washing machine or microwave! My daily usage is about 20-25a at 12v.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 8:45:59 GMT
Rolls Surette have reduced their warranty period on some of their batteries fairly recently which also seems to indicate a possible drop in product quality.
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Post by lollygagger on Jan 14, 2020 8:48:17 GMT
I wouldn't be so sure about hook up charging, we hardly use 12v and the victron charger knackered our batteries in a year hooked up. Just lights and pumps on 12v.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 8:52:14 GMT
Well, my six t105's lasted just over three years. Waste of money (and energy looking after them). I'm not up for peeing about with lifepoos, so I think I'll try some agm batteries. Well my theory is that unless you get to regularly trickle charge the batteries up to the last 1-2 percent (as one would if they had access to a shore line most nights) you lose that 1-2 percent and your battery effectively gets smaller each time you don't. I think you'll find most people who never have access to a shore line complain that their batteries only last a couple of years at most. Been there done it with banks of expensive traction batteries and Trojans. The engine starter battery last a lot longer because they only lose about 1 percent on cranking which gets charged back up by the engine quite quickly. I know 'leisure batteries' are supposed to have thicker plates to handle deep discharging but at least one bit of research I found showed that many are just rebranded starter batteries when cut open (caravan club I think). Lithium batteries are a good solution but even thay have a maximum number of life cycles (and are bloody expensive). I now just use a single starter battery as a leisure battery for about £70 which I can easily take out every so often to boost it overnight at someone's house when I can. It's a much cheaper option, but then again I have a gas fridge, no washing machine or microwave! My daily usage is about 20-25a at 12v. Good comments. If recharging a bank using a fuel driven generator then there is at some stage a cross over of the cost of the fuel versus the cost of the batteries. Say you ran the engine for 1 hour a day resulting in use of 1 litre of diesel so it's £1 a day. This gives you enough Ah to do what you want but the batts are never charged properly. To charge up properly you might need 2 hours. So that's another £1 a day. After 2 months of the extra £1 a day you have spent another £60 which could just go towards new batteries. They are basically a consumable in exactly the same way that fuel is. The only way you can expect to have long battery life is at the expense of extra fuel unless huge solar and wind or mains electric. All figures are theoretical.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 9:12:53 GMT
For what it's worth ... many years ago a mate who is a live aboard, purchased leisure batteries at a chandlers.
The batteries had a two year warranty, but when he enquired about details he was told that the warranty does not apply to live aboards as all leisure batteries are designed for occasional use, not constant recycling.
He then contacted the battery company and was advised that two to three years was the expected life of any leisure battery if in constant use, provided recharging wasn't an issue.
My current service batteries are 9 years old, and still performing, but as they only operate LED lights, pumps and 12v sockets, that's not so surprising.
The fridge batteries usually only last 3 years on the same charging routine.
I suspect we all have varied charging routines, and a liveaboard continuous cruiser and a marina hook up boat are going to have very different opinions.
Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 14, 2020 9:23:52 GMT
Well, my six t105's lasted just over three years. Waste of money (and energy looking after them). I'm not up for peeing about with lifepoos, so I think I'll try some agm batteries. Well my theory is that unless you get to regularly trickle charge the batteries up to the last 1-2 percent (as one would if they had access to a shore line most nights) you lose that 1-2 percent and your battery effectively gets smaller each time you don't. I think you'll find most people who never have access to a shore line complain that their batteries only last a couple of years at most. Been there done it with banks of expensive traction batteries and Trojans. The engine starter battery last a lot longer because they only lose about 1 percent on cranking which gets charged back up by the engine quite quickly. I know 'leisure batteries' are supposed to have thicker plates to handle deep discharging but at least one bit of research I found showed that many are just rebranded starter batteries when cut open (caravan club I think). Lithium batteries are a good solution but even thay have a maximum number of life cycles (and are bloody expensive). I now just use a single starter battery as a leisure battery for about £70 which I can easily take out every so often to boost it overnight at someone's house when I can. It's a much cheaper option, but then again I have a gas fridge, no washing machine or microwave! My daily usage is about 20-25a at 12v. Jenlyn reports charging his 650 AH of batteries until the tail current is 3.3A, which is ~0.5%. So that should be fine, unless there’s a factor we have yet to identify. Yes cheapo leisure are pretty much rebadged starter batteries, but Trojans are different, much thicker plates and no calcium. Yes lithium batteries have a limited number of cycles, but if treated properly that number is around 5000 which is approaching 15 years.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 9:29:17 GMT
Well my theory is that unless you get to regularly trickle charge the batteries up to the last 1-2 percent (as one would if they had access to a shore line most nights) you lose that 1-2 percent and your battery effectively gets smaller each time you don't. I think you'll find most people who never have access to a shore line complain that their batteries only last a couple of years at most. Been there done it with banks of expensive traction batteries and Trojans. The engine starter battery last a lot longer because they only lose about 1 percent on cranking which gets charged back up by the engine quite quickly. I know 'leisure batteries' are supposed to have thicker plates to handle deep discharging but at least one bit of research I found showed that many are just rebranded starter batteries when cut open (caravan club I think). Lithium batteries are a good solution but even thay have a maximum number of life cycles (and are bloody expensive). I now just use a single starter battery as a leisure battery for about £70 which I can easily take out every so often to boost it overnight at someone's house when I can. It's a much cheaper option, but then again I have a gas fridge, no washing machine or microwave! My daily usage is about 20-25a at 12v. Good comments. If recharging a bank using a fuel driven generator then there is at some stage a cross over of the cost of the fuel versus the cost of the batteries. Say you ran the engine for 1 hour a day resulting in use of 1 litre of diesel so it's £1 a day. This gives you enough Ah to do what you want but the batts are never charged properly. To charge up properly you might need 2 hours. So that's another £1 a day. After 2 months of the extra £1 a day you have spent another £60 which could just go towards new batteries. They are basically a consumable in exactly the same way that fuel is. The only way you can expect to have long battery life is at the expense of extra fuel unless huge solar and wind or mains electric. All figures are theoretical. I run the engine for at least 3 hours each day, usually because I am cruising (so I kind of get it free).I also get my hot water that way too so its not all about changing the battery. 2 hours engine charging wouldn't be enough to get back that last percent, you need overnight charging to do that even though its just for a few amps (I.e trickle charging). BTW, are there any lithium batteries out there which can directly replace a lead acid type battery? I'm just wondering whether there are any which are internally fitted with overcharge protection and can be charged directly from the alternator? If not, what's the easiest way to convert to lithium and keeping things simple...like me?
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 14, 2020 9:33:19 GMT
Good comments. If recharging a bank using a fuel driven generator then there is at some stage a cross over of the cost of the fuel versus the cost of the batteries. Say you ran the engine for 1 hour a day resulting in use of 1 litre of diesel so it's £1 a day. This gives you enough Ah to do what you want but the batts are never charged properly. To charge up properly you might need 2 hours. So that's another £1 a day. After 2 months of the extra £1 a day you have spent another £60 which could just go towards new batteries. They are basically a consumable in exactly the same way that fuel is. The only way you can expect to have long battery life is at the expense of extra fuel unless huge solar and wind or mains electric. All figures are theoretical. I run the engine for at least 3 hours each day, usually because I am cruising (so I kind of get it free).I also get my hot water that way too so its not all about changing the battery. 2 hours engine charging wouldn't be enough to get back that last percent, you need overnight charging to do that even though its just for a few amps (I.e trickle charging). BTW, are there any lithium batteries out there which can directly replace a lead acid type battery? I'm just wondering whether there are any which are internally fitted with overcharge protection and can be charged directly from the alternator? If not, what's the easiest way to convert to lithium and keeping things simple...like me? Yes there are drop in replacements by the likes of Victron and Mastervolt, but very very expensive. And certainly the early version had problems with premature death. IMO if you want to switch to lithiums, you really need the charging and monitoring systems adapted for that specific purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 9:39:18 GMT
I've been wondering about it as I need to replace the Leisure battery on my new superyot.
Probably just go for Lead at the end of the day. my daily power use is tiny probably about 15ah if that.
Being a big fan of simple I just see complications with Lithium and the weight saving makes no difference on a heavy motor boat anyway.
I did wonder if very expensive AGM such as the Lifeline batteries were worth the investment.
ETA and if they are not superior why are they so much more expensive.
Example the Lifeline GPL31T 105ah 12v is about £400
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 14, 2020 9:43:08 GMT
The main advantages of lithium are rapid charging and no need to fully recharge. In fact they prefer not to be fully charged.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 10:27:09 GMT
Well, my six t105's lasted just over three years. Waste of money (and energy looking after them). I'm not up for peeing about with lifepoos, so I think I'll try some agm batteries. Well my theory is that unless you get to regularly trickle charge the batteries up to the last 1-2 percent (as one would if they had access to a shore line most nights) you lose that 1-2 percent and your battery effectively gets smaller each time you don't. I think you'll find most people who never have access to a shore line complain that their batteries only last a couple of years at most. Been there done it with banks of expensive traction batteries and Trojans. The engine starter battery last a lot longer because they only lose about 1 percent on cranking which gets charged back up by the engine quite quickly. I know 'leisure batteries' are supposed to have thicker plates to handle deep discharging but at least one bit of research I found showed that many are just rebranded starter batteries when cut open (caravan club I think). Lithium batteries are a good solution but even thay have a maximum number of life cycles (and are bloody expensive). I now just use a single starter battery as a leisure battery for about £70 which I can easily take out every so often to boost it overnight at someone's house when I can. It's a much cheaper option, but then again I have a gas fridge, no washing machine or microwave! My daily usage is about 20-25a at 12v. I've looked after them, using the genny at least twice a week until within 3%. The engine also runs for 2-3 hrs a day when not using the genny. I'm not really a heavy user, having a fridge freezer which by day is almost entirely supplied by solar, and a 32w tv with sound bar 20w that runs for about two hours after charge is switched off. The victron is the heaviest user of power at 2.4amps, though I switch that off at 11pm, and back on at 8am. I'm coming to the conclusion that the newer breed of trojans are not the quality of old, and it's as simple as that.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 16:33:18 GMT
I run the engine for at least 3 hours each day, usually because I am cruising (so I kind of get it free).I also get my hot water that way too so its not all about changing the battery. 2 hours engine charging wouldn't be enough to get back that last percent, you need overnight charging to do that even though its just for a few amps (I.e trickle charging). BTW, are there any lithium batteries out there which can directly replace a lead acid type battery? I'm just wondering whether there are any which are internally fitted with overcharge protection and can be charged directly from the alternator? If not, what's the easiest way to convert to lithium and keeping things simple...like me? Yes there are drop in replacements by the likes of Victron and Mastervolt, but very very expensive. And certainly the early version had problems with premature death. IMO if you want to switch to lithiums, you really need the charging and monitoring systems adapted for that specific purpose. Thanks Nick. Yes, I suppose it’s not very cost effective paying for a built in controller inside the battery if the battery is going to fail early. I reckon 50-60ah will do me if I splash out on a lithium battery. The only other requirement for me is that it can cope with dishing out up to 300 watts for short intervals (2-3 minutes). What would be the minimum I’d need to control the charging from the alternator? I can’t reaiiy justify paying too much if I’m getting away with a £70 starter battery every year...
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Post by Deleted on Jan 14, 2020 17:12:32 GMT
So anyway I once knew this old codger with severe Parkinsons. Sadly he has now passed. But one time we were waffling about boats, and I mentioned I was toying with the notion of setting up some kind of battery bank in order to be able to re-charge hand-held units while on an extended cruise (vhf, tablet, mobile, gps). So he gave me some batts intended for a scooter. I assume that they were past their best because they were clearly not new. I put them away in a cupboard and like a lot of things never got round to experimenting with that idea. That was about five years ago.
But all this talk about charging and whatnot piqued my interest. On closer inspection, they are 12v AGM items. I connected my trusty multimeter which revealed...about 0.5 of a volt...not good. So I have hooked one up to my trusty very cheap charger which seems to be delivering about 3 amps. I will leave it on charge till the morning. The batt is getting a tad warm but so far its at about a 25 minute old cup of tea so I'm not concerned.
So how likely is it that they will hold a charge? How long is a suitable test-period once the batt is a fully charged as I can make it? Answers on the back of a ten pound note.
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