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Post by tadworth on Dec 17, 2016 0:19:42 GMT
What is the legal basis in legislation for the Trusts busines trading licences, which are outside the normal licence terms and conditions, and appear to be based entirely on contract, in that they can cancel it with imediate effect. When did parliment authorise the trust to create these licences ? And what is the legal position if a standard licence holder trades from their boat, what law have they broken ?
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 17, 2016 9:38:24 GMT
One for Nigel I think, but just to mention that if you use your boat for a business, with "ordinary" insurance, that might be invalidated and thus you would be acting unlawfully, ditto the BSS maybe? Anyway I know that isn't the point you're getting at.
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Post by peterboat on Dec 18, 2016 13:44:25 GMT
Lesley has just done this for hairdressing different bss and insurance, hairwash and dye water collected in grey water tank. She also needed planning permission from council thats all i know
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Post by NigelMoore on Dec 18, 2016 15:21:53 GMT
What is the legal basis in legislation for the Trusts busines trading licences, which are outside the normal licence terms and conditions, and appear to be based entirely on contract, in that they can cancel it with imediate effect. When did parliment authorise the trust to create these licences ? And what is the legal position if a standard licence holder trades from their boat, what law have they broken ? No legal basis; Parliament never authorised such licences. The canals were designed for the use by boats carrying out commercial enterprises from which the proprietors were entitled to exact a toll. Charges could also be levied in certain circumstances for the use of pleasure boats, but that was de minimus. Commercial enterprises other than the carrying of cargo on boats attracted no charges. On any CaRT owned or managed non-commercial waterway [i.e. the ‘cruising’ waterways] the toll system was replaced with a “commercial vessel licence” under the terms of the 1976 byelaws, wherein “ commercial vessel” “ means any ship, boat, barge, lighter or raft and any other description of craft used for the conveyance of goods on a canal other than a commercial waterway.” It should be noted that by contrast with the provisions of the 1971 Act – wherein the Board had “ Power to sub-divide classification of pleasure boats” – sub-dividing classes of commercial vessels is not provided for anywhere that I know of. Even if, of course, a similar provision applied to commercial craft, the terms of the Act demanded that the relevant charges could not exceed those for the same vessel classed otherwise. If then, your boat is not being used for the conveyance of goods it is not, under the relevant legislation, a commercial vessel, and will remain a pleasure boat used for multifarious other purposes outwith the Board’s remit. As others have observed, however, other authorities do indeed have jurisdiction over the uses of boats for commercial purposes other than cargo-carrying, notably the Local Planning Authority, but also the usual gamut of regulatory bodies. So anyone trading from their boat would have to research the relevant statutory regulations – it is just that CaRT do not have any.
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Post by tadworth on Dec 18, 2016 19:40:04 GMT
Thanks Nigel.
No doubt CRT would claim their default clause of sect. 43, 1962 TA for this, that still leaves the matter of the extra charge for the trading licence, which must then be unlawful, and always has been even under BW, in theory then all of them should be refunded.
Some or all of the different trading licences, and their terms and conditions are purely civil contracts then, with no authority granted by Parliament for the Trust to create these licences they are unenforceable ?
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2016 20:15:54 GMT
But surely if you are say a cheese boat or pretty much any other trading boat, you are in fact conveying your commercial goods to the point of sale? Are there any trading boats that don't trade in "things" but only trade in services or other non-tangible items?
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Post by NigelMoore on Dec 18, 2016 20:48:31 GMT
But surely if you are say a cheese boat or pretty much any other trading boat, you are in fact conveying your commercial goods to the point of sale? Are there any trading boats that don't trade in "things" but only trade in services or other non-tangible items? I would agree that any boat carrying goods for trade would qualify as a Commercial vessel for the purpose of the byelaw and the 1995 Act. The ‘business’ licence appears to be a completely separate thing, of which I know nothing, having never been interested enough to look into it. If they grant a licence to do anything that falls within the parameters of chargeable services, then they will be legitimate, otherwise not. It is impossible for me to generalise in saying anything else. Whether boats carry on non-tangible trade such as, for example, internet services/consultation etc, then that would be no business of CaRT, and if no visitors were involved, it would be no business of anyone else either. As to reimbursement of illegitimate licences, CaRT have been having to do that for all pleasure boats on the Brent since my 2012 decision, so yes, if they ought not to have demanded them, then they ought to repay – however, the boats if not on a separate licence would have to have had a commercial or pleasure boat licence anyway, so the reimbursement would only be for the difference.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2016 20:59:34 GMT
But surely if you are say a cheese boat or pretty much any other trading boat, you are in fact conveying your commercial goods to the point of sale? Are there any trading boats that don't trade in "things" but only trade in services or other non-tangible items? I would agree that any boat carrying goods for trade would qualify as a Commercial vessel for the purpose of the byelaw and the 1995 Act. The ‘business’ licence appears to be a completely separate thing, of which I know nothing, having never been interested enough to look into it. If they grant a licence to do anything that falls within the parameters of chargeable services, then they will be legitimate, otherwise not. It is impossible for me to generalise in saying anything else. Whether boats carry on non-tangible trade such as, for example, internet services/consultation etc, then that would be no business of CaRT, and if no visitors were involved, it would be no business of anyone else either. As to reimbursement of illegitimate licences, CaRT have been having to do that for all pleasure boats on the Brent since my 2012 decision, so yes, if they ought not to have demanded them, then they ought to repay – however, the boats if not on a separate licence would have to have had a commercial or pleasure boat licence anyway, so the reimbursement would only be for the difference. Clearly if you are simply conducting a business from home or "working from home" on the odd day you don't go into work (with your home being a boat) whereby there are no paying customers visible, then a commercial licence isn't required and nor could CRT feasibly know you are doing it.
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Post by NigelMoore on Dec 18, 2016 22:57:08 GMT
Indeed not, but there have been publicised instances where boaters in BWML marinas have freely stated they were conducting internet business from the boat, and were served eviction notices. Not quite the same thing admittedly.
If I recall correctly, the ensuing uproar resulted in a back-down.
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Post by tadworth on Dec 18, 2016 22:58:54 GMT
OK they have changed it all since I last had a business licence, it's now a "roving trader" licence, for a full length boat about £200 extra licence fee, the terms and conditions start with this dubious statement...
"In accordance with Section 43(3) of the Transport Act 1962, licences are subject to conditions which apply to the use of a boat on any waterway which we own or manage."
And ends the first page with...
" Please note that failure to comply with these terms and conditions may result in the termination of your Licence and you could face legal action, which may result in the removal of your boat from our waterways "
A few more tasty morsels...
9.4 We reserve the right to refuse to issue you with any Licence in the future*. You have no right under these Terms and Conditions (or our General Terms and Conditions for Boat Licences) to the renewal of a Licence. We will not unreasonably refuse to renew a Licence. However, if we do refuse to issue you with a Licence, we will write and tell you why "
11.2 You must comply with the Navigation Rules, Bye laws and all other relevant legislation and follow our directions whether they be spoken or written* (including signs).
11.5 You agree that we may come on board to inspect the Boat where we need to check that you meet the Licence Terms. We will give you reasonable notice if we want to do this and we will try to accommodate your wishes. We may board the Boat without notice if we believe it may be unsafe or is unidentifiable.
11.8 If you give permission to any other person to use or have control of the Boat, you must ensure that they are aware of these Licence Terms. You will be held responsible for their actions (which covers what they may do or fail to do) and for any breach of the Licence Terms as result of their actions.
11.10 You must allow us to board your Boat at any time* for the purpose of accessing any adjacent boat(s) that we may reasonably need to access via your Boat.
18.2 You must provide us with copies of:
18.2.1 A Boat Safety Scheme Certificate (or a Boat Safety Scheme Exemption Declaration, if applicable) in accordance with Clause 4 above. This must be a Non-private certificate if customers are allowed to board your Boat.
18.2.2 An insurance certificate covering your trading activities in accordance with clause 5 above.
18.2.3 A full risk assessment for all your trading activities if we request you to do so. *
18.2.4 Evidence that all skippers of the boat hold a MCA Boatmasters’ Licence (or equivalent) if you carry coal, diesel, bottled gas, sewage, oil or other hazardous substances in quantities greater than those required for the domestic and navigation needs of persons operating the Boat.
18.3 All goods associated with your trade must be kept on the boat at all times. You may place one A-frame style advertising board on the bank between the Boat and the towpath in locations where it does not cause an obstruction or hazard but this must be removed immediately if requested by us.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 18, 2016 23:19:35 GMT
Indeed not, but there have been publicised instances where boaters in BWML marinas have freely stated they were conducting internet business from the boat, and were served eviction notices. Not quite the same thing admittedly. If I recall correctly, the ensuing uproar resulted in a back-down. But that was surely due to a breach of the marina's Ts and Cs that disallowed running a business from the boat in the marina, not due to a failure to have a trading licence?
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Post by NigelMoore on Dec 18, 2016 23:33:03 GMT
Yes, that is why I said "not quite the same thing". OK, a fair way beyond the same thing; it is getting late and am doing too many things simultaneously.
Something to do with being only a male apparently, so I am frequently told.
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Post by junior on Dec 19, 2016 6:53:56 GMT
Whatever you decide to do in your crusade against CRT, please don't fuck it up for the rest of us. My livelihood depends on this licence.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 8:03:53 GMT
Good point junior.
Going back to Nigel's point about someone in a BWML Marina "running an internet business" and being served an eviction notice. I -believe- this is referring to someone in Poplar Dock marina (bwml) who was running an independent brokerage selling boats on transferable moorings in the marina. Being beside canary wharf the mooring transfer adds a very big premium to the boat value. As far as I know bwml use Boatshed and apply a fee so I can see how they would be pissed off with an independent broker in their marina.
The person is still there doing it so the eviction did not occur.
Its not someone who was selling sex toys on eBay. I don't think bwml or CRT would be remotely interested if you use your boat as a base for storing and selling sex toys via mail order. Get people -coming onto- your boat to buy sex toys is a completely different story. If they come inside your boat there could be an insurance issue as well I would have thought.
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Post by tadworth on Dec 19, 2016 15:42:56 GMT
Whatever you decide to do in your crusade against CRT, please don't fuck it up for the rest of us. My livelihood depends on this licence. You didnt direct that at anyone specific, but if i may i will answer it, how could my investigating the legal basis of the trading licence possibly fuck it up for you ? If it turns out that there is no legal basis you will still have your licence, you will just be aware of the facts. If the most unlikley scenario happened in that CRT stopped all business licences because of a thread on a website then it would be time to worry.
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