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Post by carlt on May 4, 2016 9:29:51 GMT
Why does believing in the afterlife comfort you?Frankly I find the dismissal of this world in favour of some unknowable maybe quite disturbing.
I dont believe I "belittled" your opinion, merely gave my own that the phrase 'spiritual crutch' is often used as a put down or a verbal stick, but if I have offended you then please accept my sincere apologies. I was responding to Bassplayer's continually attacking the person rather than the issue. I don't believe you belittled my opinion either. Whe likening religion to a spiritual crutch I am merely reacting to the language used in religious texts which seems to compare "god" to some all merciful (yet all powerful) being which will take care of us but punish us if we are naughty (with the ultimate punishment reserved for after death if you don't follow his doctrine). Scripture makes "god" seem like an abusive parent and humans the over reliant children who ignore the abuse because of the vague promise of candy eventually. I don't know if you listen to the Archers but the Rob/Helen relationship springs to mind (before she came to her senses).
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Post by carlt on May 4, 2016 9:39:01 GMT
Why do you describe it asw "god abuse"?It is strange that when an atheist presents a reasoned argument, looking for evidence and logic they are accused of "abuse", "belittling" and "bullying" because the only real counter argument is "I don't need proof because I have faith". It is not disrespectful to demand a bit higher burden of proof than the faithful can provide, nor is it bullying to not understand how someone can believe in something so powerful yet so coy as to hide its existence yet punish you for not believing. As for god being a fairytale this is not disrespect either because, like religious scripture, fairytales use supernatural beings and miraculous events to set moral rules and ethical values. Some people believe in fairytales too yet the faithful dismiss those people just as enthusiastically as I dismiss all superstition. Don't forget...All who follow the Abrahamic faiths are just one "god" away from atheism. 'God abuse' was merely my choice of words to Chagall, who has been fending off all of us stoically with her firmly held beliefs, amongst a group of nay-sayers. I found it rather nice that she didn't turn it into a slanging match, merely pointing out that it all added up to personal comfort. That's 'awight' in my book! I agree. I'd much rather discuss religion with someone who has faith and offers reasoned argument than a fellow atheist which tends to result in boring mutual back-slapping. By the way, for those religious folk who would like to offer greater depth of argument than "I have faith therefore god is real" I can heartily recommend "Reality and the Folly of Atheism" by Mike Robinson.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 10:15:50 GMT
'God abuse' was merely my choice of words to Chagall, who has been fending off all of us stoically with her firmly held beliefs, amongst a group of nay-sayers. I found it rather nice that she didn't turn it into a slanging match, merely pointing out that it all added up to personal comfort. That's 'awight' in my book! I agree. I'd much rather discuss religion with someone who has faith and offers reasoned argument than a fellow atheist which tends to result in boring mutual back-slapping. By the way, for those religious folk who would like to offer greater depth of argument than "I have faith therefore god is real" I can heartily recommend "Reality and the Folly of Atheism" by Mike Robinson. You started the attack then complain when someone else defends themselves. I've asked you some genuine questions to find out where you are at but so far no answers. So what do you want out of this discussion?
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 11:09:56 GMT
When I went to Goa I was peased to see the Catholic church so hard at work helping people, we went to a party for want of better words, and really enjoyed the evening, at the end we paid what we had thought the evening was worth and had seen a whole new side of Goa. Two questions, 1) did you leave with the same Partner you arrived with ? 2) did you take precautions ?
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Post by naughtyfox on May 4, 2016 13:23:31 GMT
Don't feed the derailing Troll.
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 14:46:19 GMT
Don't feed the derailing Troll. I am not derailing anything,I am replying humorously to Peters post where he mentions going to a Party that showed him a side of Goa he hadn't seen before
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Post by naughtyfox on May 4, 2016 15:03:25 GMT
You only said that to get another post count!
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Post by peterboat on May 4, 2016 16:28:06 GMT
When I went to Goa I was peased to see the Catholic church so hard at work helping people, we went to a party for want of better words, and really enjoyed the evening, at the end we paid what we had thought the evening was worth and had seen a whole new side of Goa. Two questions, 1) did you leave with the same Partner you arrived with ? 2) did you take precautions ? We did most people think the catholic church is a take take thing? but in Goa it was all about the giving. The congregation were very poor but shared what they had with us, we in turn when we left paid far more than we had taken in monetary terms but had had a great evenings entertainment and knew that anything given was going to be used to help the poor [thats 98% of the population]. The Goans are lovely people and we will visit again soon
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Post by Deleted on May 4, 2016 16:49:51 GMT
Two questions, 1) did you leave with the same Partner you arrived with ? 2) did you take precautions ? We did most people think the catholic church is a take take thing? but in Goa it was all about the giving. The congregation were very poor but shared what they had with us, we in turn when we left paid far more than we had taken in monetary terms but had had a great evenings entertainment and knew that anything given was going to be used to help the poor [thats 98% of the population]. The Goans are lovely people and we will visit again soon Converted to catholicism by the Portugese Peter
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Post by Saltysplash on May 6, 2016 15:45:45 GMT
In fact, I'm wondering how it is that adults no longer believe in Santa Claus but continue to believe in God! Thats because Santa Claus is actually a Pagan God so its not good for Christians to Believe in him.
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Post by Saltysplash on May 6, 2016 18:45:50 GMT
I was thinking if we are going to discuss God then it would be interesting to see who/what everyone thinks God is. If we aren't discussing the same God then it gets tricky...as we have found throughout history. For example we could just discuss Father Christmas. There is no need to pick out one god for discussion because all gods are the same...a fiction created by humans in order to impose their moral beliefs through fear and the promise of reward or punishment.... ...just like Father Christmas only for adults so you are absolutely right... Except in the case of Northern Heathens whos Gods are not feared nor do they Punish, Nor are they Omnipotent.
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Post by carlt on May 10, 2016 8:26:27 GMT
I agree. I'd much rather discuss religion with someone who has faith and offers reasoned argument than a fellow atheist which tends to result in boring mutual back-slapping. By the way, for those religious folk who would like to offer greater depth of argument than "I have faith therefore god is real" I can heartily recommend "Reality and the Folly of Atheism" by Mike Robinson. You started the attack then complain when someone else defends themselves. I've asked you some genuine questions to find out where you are at but so far no answers. So what do you want out of this discussion? If you could point out where I have attacked you personally rather than addressed something you have said then I would be happy to apologise and edit my post. I have done nothing other than discuss faith, religion and the existence of a supernatural creator and have not questioned or attacked your personal beliefs or accused you of "preaching".
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Post by carlt on May 10, 2016 8:31:21 GMT
There is no need to pick out one god for discussion because all gods are the same...a fiction created by humans in order to impose their moral beliefs through fear and the promise of reward or punishment.... ...just like Father Christmas only for adults so you are absolutely right... Except in the case of Northern Heathens whos Gods are not feared nor do they Punish, Nor are they Omnipotent. Bloody Northerners! The Northern Gods have to be forgiving otherwise, when they see the pitiful contribution by the Northern worshippers into the collection plate, there'd be hellfire and pestilence hurled down every Sunday.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2016 9:15:12 GMT
You started the attack then complain when someone else defends themselves. I've asked you some genuine questions to find out where you are at but so far no answers. So what do you want out of this discussion? If you could point out where I have attacked you personally rather than addressed something you have said then I would be happy to apologise and edit my post. I have done nothing other than discuss faith, religion and the existence of a supernatural creator and have not questioned or attacked your personal beliefs or accused you of "preaching". ...and I've asked you 3 times what you want out of this discussion. I wonder sometimes whether you are just a wind up merchant portraying to be some kind of atheist academic and who is probably hoping to call me a hypocrite at some point. So far I have not seen you add much to this other than reversing things around to look like some kind of victim . I'm happy to give my views on the subject (although I have already said I don't claim to know all the answers) if you are are prepared to answer some of my questions or views. Otherwise I shall just leave you to it. Feel free to PM if you think it's more appropriate. I don't bite, I just get grumpy sometimes.
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Post by sabcat on May 10, 2016 16:43:42 GMT
This discussion would be far more fun if that nutjob from CWDF who's name I can't remember was here.
Anyway, for me there's no reason at all to assume there's a god or gods any and with the absence of any evidence for a god I won't be believing in one.
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