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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 21, 2017 19:21:20 GMT
Having our tiller upper bearing renewed/replaced at a boatyard - not sure if there's a bearing there or not! What we seem to have is some botch-job with the nut welded. Tiller rocks side-to-side, people have said they have seen worse, but I wanted to get it sorted. Message in this evening says "tiller arm is rotten below the water level". What's a 'tiller arm'? (looking at google didn't help). We saw what we could during blacking, which we did ourselves, last July in a dry dock, so we saw the 'shaft' which ends in a blob at the bottom which sits in the cup (need a new blob and cup next dry dock, they are also worn). The top bearing can be done as the boat sits in water we were told, and I also don't see why not. The hull surveyor said the shaft will go up through the fuel tank, so I imagine there's a cylindrical hole for the shaft. goo.gl/photos/VMbLTU2AuJgZ6j6VAgoo.gl/photos/H2ss2MNwwvDnNx2H6 I don't have any photos of the thingy where the swan neck attaches to the upper-bearing gubbings. Do you think by 'tiller arm' they mean the shaft? And for the cylindrical tube - never thought about it, but shouldn't the inside surface of that be blacked as well during blacking? That would involve removing the shaft. Is that what you're supposed to do? (we didn't!)
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Post by Delta9 on Feb 21, 2017 19:32:05 GMT
The bit usually referred to as the tiller arm is the brass pole you steer with that slots on to the tiller. Never heard it used to describe any of the underwater bits before.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 19:45:45 GMT
If the tiller arm is underwater this means your boat has capsized.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 19:49:34 GMT
There are differing types of tiller assembly.
For clarity I think you're going to have to ask the boatyard what they mean, rather than us trying to guess.
Good luck.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 19:55:00 GMT
It's poor wording, the tiller arm being described is the Rudder Stock , the bar the rudder blade is attached to which in turn the bent bit of iron you steer with is attached to. I'd be a little concerned at the condition of the tube the rudder stock passes through in your fuel tank. It can't practically be painted so corrosion is an issue. Schedule 80 tube (gert thick stuff) is the best bet here, sadly, most just use any old likely looking bit of tube. I replaced our rudder assembly due to the rudder stock corroding from 1 1/8" to 3/4". Link to commonly used term's for sterngear. johnoxley.org.au/artefacts/hand-steering-system/
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 21, 2017 21:04:22 GMT
The bit usually referred to as the tiller arm is the brass pole you steer with that slots on to the tiller. Yes, agreed.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 21, 2017 21:13:39 GMT
It's poor wording, the tiller arm being described is the Rudder Stock , the bar the rudder blade is attached to which in turn the bent bit of iron you steer with is attached to. I'd be a little concerned at the condition of the tube the rudder stock passes through in your fuel tank. It can't practically be painted so corrosion is an issue. Schedule 80 tube (gert thick stuff) is the best bet here, sadly, most just use any old likely looking bit of tube. I replaced our rudder assembly due to the rudder stock corroding from 1 1/8" to 3/4". Link to commonly used term's for sterngear. johnoxley.org.au/artefacts/hand-steering-system/ The rudder stock being what I would call 'the vertical shaft', I'm guessing. It had not occurred to me that the tube went through the fuel tank until the hull surveyor said so, and I had not thought to paint/black the inside of it. That could be done easily by removing the shaft and sticking a bung in the bottom of the tube and just pouring bitumen into the tube, then letting it drain out. But what we have (or had) is something to be cut off and possibly a bit of welding. I hope the tube itself is OK (how can you tell unless you cut everything open?) and that he just means the stock/shaft - surely that's a dead easy thing to do, even if just cutting the rotten bit away and welding a new length, so as to keep the bottom length which fits nicely into the cup at the bottom. What happens if the tube corrodes and a hole appears and you suddenly have 250 litres of diesel floating along the Ponty-wotsit Aqueduct??!! Has this happened to anyone, the tube rotting away leading to a fuel leak? Are many narrowboats like this, fuel tank at back with tiller tube going right through it?
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Post by Deleted on Feb 21, 2017 21:25:00 GMT
It's poor wording, the tiller arm being described is the Rudder Stock , the bar the rudder blade is attached to which in turn the bent bit of iron you steer with is attached to. I'd be a little concerned at the condition of the tube the rudder stock passes through in your fuel tank. It can't practically be painted so corrosion is an issue. Schedule 80 tube (gert thick stuff) is the best bet here, sadly, most just use any old likely looking bit of tube. I replaced our rudder assembly due to the rudder stock corroding from 1 1/8" to 3/4". Link to commonly used term's for sterngear. johnoxley.org.au/artefacts/hand-steering-system/ The rudder stock being what I would call 'the vertical shaft', I'm guessing. It had not occurred to me that the tube went through the fuel tank until the hull surveyor said so, and I had not thought to paint/black the inside of it. That could be done easily by removing the shaft and sticking a bung in the bottom of the tube and just pouring bitumen into the tube, then letting it drain out. But what we have (or had) is something to be cut off and possibly a bit of welding. I hope the tube itself is OK (how can you tell unless you cut everything open?) and that he just means the stock/shaft - surely that's a dead easy thing to do, even if just cutting the rotten bit away and welding a new length, so as to keep the bottom length which fits nicely into the cup at the bottom. What happens if the tube corrodes and a hole appears and you suddenly have 250 litres of diesel floating along the Ponty-wotsit Aqueduct??!! Has this happened to anyone, the tube rotting away leading to a fuel leak? Are many narrowboats like this, fuel tank at back with tiller tube going right through it? Yes, you've got it. The problem with the tube is the design of the complete rudder assembly usually makes it very difficult to strip - especially if it's never been apart in 20+ years. As for measuring the extent of corrosion to the tube - again, access is so bad there's no practical way of doing it. Visual inspection and looking out for signs like diesel weeping is the best you can do. I'd go for a replacement of the rudder stock and bearings and leave it at that, doing the tube won't be cheap in a boatyard. Most modern wide and narrow boats are built like this, the only good way of building them is as I said earlier, use a bit of tube with a very thick wall. Boats often fail in this area. The good news is you are unlikely to sink from it, bad news is for the fish and your wallet.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 6:56:57 GMT
Just a thought.
If the clearance between rudder stock and tube is large there is the possibility of sleeving the tube. If a piece of tube to sleeve it with a suitable diameter (both inside and out) can be found, it would be a good time to do it while the top bearing is being worked on.
Otherwise you're into all the nobbing about that goes with cutting out and replacing the tube.
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Post by tonyb on Feb 22, 2017 8:00:48 GMT
Didn't Liverpool Boats have an all in one slotted rudder stock and swan neck/tiller with the blade held in by bolts? If so just maybe this is like that so the stock and "arm" is the same chunk of metal.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:06:14 GMT
Didn't Liverpool Boats have an all in one slotted rudder stock and swan neck/tiller with the blade held in by bolts? If so just maybe this is like that so the stock and "arm" is the same chunk of metal. It looks a fairly basic set up on my phone.
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Post by naughtyfox on Feb 22, 2017 8:43:51 GMT
Our boat was built by Delph Marine. So we don't have fake rivets but we do have Black Country provenance Haven't checked my e-mail for photos yet from the boatyard where it is at. "If the clearance between rudder stock and tube is large there is the possibility of sleeving the tube." - that's an idea, but the surface of the tube that's there already will still need to have its inside surface painted or blacked, surely? And another metal close to it may cause corrosion in itself... of course another sleeve inserted could be painted first, or it could be of plastic... unlikely to happen in our case, but there might still be time to suggest it. What I had wondered is this - isn't everyone else in the 'same boat'. Everyone else's tiller stock/shaft going through their fuel tank at the back? Isn't everyone else worried about their tubes getting all rusty inside? Do people do anything about this? All new to me, this subject... I shall have to ask whenever we see boaters in future. Our boat is from 1986 (I think!) so it's 30 years old. No idea why it is as it is, or who did the 'botch-job' (perhaps it was designed like that?). This also occurred to me today, why do rudders have a hole in them? And why does the front of our boat have a hole in the 'front ridge'? I found this from Google: "the purpose of that hole is to balance the rudder when re-fitting it and to help manouver it back into the skeg bush. not to hold the weight." - David Schweizer ("As amicus says, thats exatly what all the dingy sailers do" - Denial on the same thread!) www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2090 Here's the hole in our rudder: goo.gl/photos/JgsmixDfRjtCeKyt9 Here's the hole in our front ridge: goo.gl/photos/B9vXnjRsMnXbCXun9
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:47:38 GMT
Our boat was built by Delph Marine. So we don't have fake rivets but we do have Black Country provenance Haven't checked my e-mail for photos yet from the boatyard where it is at. "If the clearance between rudder stock and tube is large there is the possibility of sleeving the tube." - that's an idea, but the surface of the tube that's there already will still need to have its inside surface painted or blacked, surely? And another metal close to it may cause corrosion in itself... of course another sleeve inserted could be painted first, or it could be of plastic... unlikely to happen in our case, but there might still be time to suggest it. What I had wondered is this - isn't everyone else in the 'same boat'. Everyone else's tiller stock/shaft going through their fuel tank at the back? Isn't everyone else worried about their tubes getting all rusty inside? Do people do anything about this? All new to me, this subject... I shall have to ask whenever we see boaters in future. Our boat is from 1986 (I think!) so it's 30 years old. No idea why it is as it is, or who did the 'botch-job' (perhaps it was designed like that?). This also occurred to me today, why do rudders have a hole in them? Andthe purpose of that hole is to balance the rudder when re-fitting it and to help manouver it back into the skeg bush. not to hold the weight. why does the front of our boat have a hole in the 'front ridge'? I found this from Google: "the purpose of that hole is to balance the rudder when re-fitting it and to help manouver it back into the skeg bush. not to hold the weight." - David Schweizer ("As amicus says, thats exatly what all the dingy sailers do" - Denial on the same thread!) www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=2090 Here's the hole in our rudder: goo.gl/photos/JgsmixDfRjtCeKyt9 Here's the hole in our front ridge: goo.gl/photos/B9vXnjRsMnXbCXun9 that's an idea, but the surface of the tube that's there already will still need to have its inside surface painted or blacked, surely? And another metal close to it may cause corrosion in itself... of course another sleeve inserted could be painted first, or it could be of plastic... unlikely to happen in our case, but there might still be time to suggest it. The old tube is no longer in contact with the water once the new sleeve is welded (correctly!!) into place, you are in effect overplating the tube. The hole in the rudder is to aid fitting,. the hole in the stem post was probably used by the builders to winch it down their slip when built.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2017 8:53:24 GMT
We have a similar hole in our keel - never use it, but the way the Babylon works were set up at Appleyard and Lincoln make me think the launched them on a trolley via a winch.
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Post by kris on Feb 22, 2017 9:36:05 GMT
You could have an insert turned up out of one these plastics that are used for bearings. If you had it turned exactly it could be push fit. As long of course as there is the clearance.
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