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Post by JohnV on May 7, 2016 15:42:28 GMT
Quite a thought provoking thread ! Been a great thread John and welcome back,I seem to have missed you for a day or two Had been having trouble with signal for some reason, it was absolutely diabolical ......... it made even reading threads hard, let alone trying to post !!!! seems ok now so fingers crossed. |
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2016 15:54:38 GMT
Been a great thread John and welcome back,I seem to have missed you for a day or two Had been having trouble with signal for some reason, it was absolutely diabolical ......... it made even reading threads hard, let alone trying to post !!!! seems ok now so fingers crossed. Been some great posts,threads and arguments even the occasional fallout but I am glad it wasn't a health issue |
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Post by macwolfelee on May 7, 2016 17:09:57 GMT
This is what I was getting at when I said Independence was becoming a millstone round the SNP neck in the same way Clause 4 was round the Labour Party Well I hope it sinks them.
This unexpected result is I think similar to the unexpectedly decisive independence result. People wanted change, but not necessarily independence. Well they got the change, but are now realising that the SNP are not the promised land, but just another political party, and that a good balance is much better.
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Post by loafer on May 7, 2016 17:30:51 GMT
I just wish I could take part. I don't know enough of dat shit, innit!
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Post by Higgs on May 8, 2016 11:01:02 GMT
[/p] The Scots have a very strong identity, but they are joined to the UK; England being the dominant partner. As an English person, I don't feel the same sort of connection with Europe.
I don't think democracy can work in the EU. Once the government elects to cede power to a once removed entity, your vote is watered down and replaced by a distant body that is dominated by commercial imperatives.
[/quote][/p]
I think that very many Scots feel no sort of connection with England, just like you with Europe. (Obviously that doesn't apply to me - I don't regard myself as belonging to either, or any, country.)
And don't you think that the UK government is dominated by commercial imperatives? Especially the present one. There are many people who cherish the ideal of a United Europe; unfortunately they are even rarer in this country than in the rest of Europe.
Edited to say that I don't know what happened with the quotes there, but I think it's clear who's saying what.
[/quote][/p]
For some reason I'm forced to post inside your post.
Ok, I get it that some Scots don't feel any connection with the UK. Had the Scots voted independence at the last opportunity, the discussion would be different. And yes, the UK government is as mercenary as the next government.
The Ideal of the EU is not a bad one, in an ideal world. The realities are far from ideal. I've stated one of my concerns as it being a dilution of democracy. And, free movement is nothing more than individuals exercising their right to find the most beneficial places, economic or whatever. That is not to say it is good for the majority. It cannot replace the effect of an individual's ability to make their vote count. Free movement is an ideal, created by treaty; treatise we have no vote on. I think it was a move suitable for a later date and not as soon as it was; created on the assumption that as an ideal it creates an ideal situation in effect. For one thing, I think the standards of each country should have been brought up to some equal standard by investment from the group, before open borders were initiated.
Open borders are well and good for those that are free to make use of the advantage, but that still leaves those that can't to struggle in their own predicaments; and that's the majority. So, whilst I think an EU is an ideal and a socialist concept, it is only working mainly for the betterment of a few and the self-centredness of capitalism.
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Post by macwolfelee on May 8, 2016 11:30:44 GMT
[/p] Ok, I get it that some Scots don't feel any connection with the UK.
[/quote] Well, the thing is, unfortunately, that it is only England that many Scots feel no connection with, or even antipathy to. The same feeling does not apply to Wales and Northern Ireland. I know that it's all very messy, but there you are. I sometimes get the idea that England would like to rid themselves of Scotland, Wales, and Northern Ireland. |
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Post by Higgs on May 8, 2016 12:13:03 GMT
A totally scrabbled post. WTF!!
In reply to Macwolfelee. I've tried to reply, but the gremlins have hit. |
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Post by JohnV on May 8, 2016 12:19:21 GMT
I don't know if it is just me but it has always seemed that there was a stronger identity within regions of England than there was affinity to the whole.
I realise that this has (almost within my lifetime) become blurred by increased mobility. As a child you could often spot people who had a typical look of an area, people from Suffolk looked and sounded different from those in Essex and different again from Norfolk (I don't mean Estuary Essex, they're incommers from London) Most of the old English areas had quite a strong regional identity and a great deal of suspicion of other regions.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2016 12:25:42 GMT
I don't know if it is just me but it has always seemed that there was a stronger identity within regions of England than there was affinity to the whole. I realise that this has (almost within my lifetime) become blurred by increased mobility. As a child you could often spot people who had a typical look of an area, people from Suffolk looked and sounded different from those in Essex and different again from Norfolk (I don't mean Estuary Essex, they're incommers from London) Most of the old English areas had quite a strong regional identity and a great deal of suspicion of other regions. Do you think its increased mobility thats blurred it as opposed to increased immigration |
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Post by JohnV on May 8, 2016 12:36:41 GMT
I think it was mostly increased mobility that made the biggest early changes but in recent years immigration has had an enormous effect especially in certain areas. but of course most of the original regional differences were caused by immigration from different areas.
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