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Post by sabcat on May 22, 2016 22:34:49 GMT
I think he'd be toxic to the campaign, in different ways to Boris but just as bad. Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. John McDonnell, he could put some fire in the belly of the Brexit campaign. Unlike Boris et al he'd actually believe it as well. Sadly though, he's got other things on the go, other priorities. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out post vote, assuming remain wins. Especially in the Tory party. |
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Post by PaulG2 on May 23, 2016 2:19:12 GMT
When is the vote? Donald Trump will be free in early November, and he'll pimp himself out for any cause, if the price is right.
I'll get my coat....
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Post by Deleted on May 23, 2016 5:35:11 GMT
Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. John McDonnell, he could put some fire in the belly of the Brexit campaign. Unlike Boris et al he'd actually believe it as well. Sadly though, he's got other things on the go, other priorities. It'll be interesting to see how it all pans out post vote, assuming remain wins. Especially in the Tory party. I rate John Mcdonnell,I suppose you agree about Talent being pretty sparse? What is the point of Tom Watson for example ? The Tory future is quite bleak I feel, especially with a tight margin in the Brexit voting. |
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Post by Albion on May 24, 2016 15:56:42 GMT
Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. I am sad that the people leading the Brexit campaign just don't seem to be getting their act together and making accurate comments that would avoid the Remain people being able to shoot holes in their arguments. Instead of Boris putting cheques for '£350,000,000 per week' into a furnace which allows the Remain crowd to say that that is a gross figure and doesn't allow for rebates and EU funding why not just say that the UK is the second largest NET contributor to the EU after Germany and that 19 of the 28 member countries are NET recipients thus illustrating that 9 member states are funding the whole farce. It's no wonder the 19 don't want any change in the EU, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. What we need is accurate info put out in a way that cannot be immediately dismissed by good representatives who appeal to the public. I have been disappointed with Boris's efforts so far and don't think that Gove has sufficient respect from much of the public after some of his previous efforts as a minister of state. Roger |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 16:07:09 GMT
Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. I am sad that the people leading the Brexit campaign just don't seem to be getting their act together and making accurate comments that would avoid the Remain people being able to shoot holes in their arguments. Instead of Boris putting cheques for '£350,000,000 per week' into a furnace which allows the Remain crowd to say that that is a gross figure and doesn't allow for rebates and EU funding why not just say that the UK is the second largest NET contributor to the EU after Germany and that 19 of the 28 member countries are NET recipients thus illustrating that 9 member states are funding the whole farce. It's no wonder the 19 don't want any change in the EU, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. What we need is accurate info put out in a way that cannot be immediately dismissed by good representatives who appeal to the public. I have been disappointed with Boris's efforts so far and don't think that Gove has sufficient respect from much of the public after some of his previous efforts as a minister of state. Roger Apart from your disenchantment with Gove I agree with you completely.It almost seems that Boris Johnston is a "Plant" by the Government to take the Brexit Campaign nowhere.Where has the UKIP contingent gone,not just Farage but the backers,Stuart Wheeler,Paul Sykes etc |
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Post by PaulG2 on May 24, 2016 16:23:02 GMT
Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. I am sad that the people leading the Brexit campaign just don't seem to be getting their act together and making accurate comments that would avoid the Remain people being able to shoot holes in their arguments. Instead of Boris putting cheques for '£350,000,000 per week' into a furnace which allows the Remain crowd to say that that is a gross figure and doesn't allow for rebates and EU funding why not just say that the UK is the second largest NET contributor to the EU after Germany and that 19 of the 28 member countries are NET recipients thus illustrating that 9 member states are funding the whole farce. It's no wonder the 19 don't want any change in the EU, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. What we need is accurate info put out in a way that cannot be immediately dismissed by good representatives who appeal to the public. I have been disappointed with Boris's efforts so far and don't think that Gove has sufficient respect from much of the public after some of his previous efforts as a minister of state. Roger Don't you think a lot of the problem is corporate controlled media? People believe what they see on the television and what they read in the newspapers. When almost all your sources of information are corporate controlled, it's their propaganda that will rule the day. The state of the media in the world today is Hermann Goering's wet dream. |
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Post by Albion on May 24, 2016 16:30:28 GMT
Apart from your disenchantment with Gove I agree with you completely.It almost seems that Boris Johnston is a "Plant" by the Government to take the Brexit Campaign nowhere.Where has the UKIP contingent gone,not just Farage but the backers,Stuart Wheeler,Paul Sykes etc Exactly, the whole Brexit campaign seems ineffective and disjointed. Where are all the people that were so vocal and such strong supporters before the campaign was officially allowed to make official comments? It's all gone so quiet on that side while the Remain people are always in the news commenting. It's all to do with the Vote Leave and the Grassroots Out groups split I suppose. What a pity that they couldn't get together and forget their differences for the good of the country. Inter group bickering and the argument gets lost in the noise. Roger |
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Post by Albion on May 24, 2016 16:38:02 GMT
There is an element of truth in what you say but, in the case of Boris and the cheque into the furnace episode he was clearly shown on tele doing it so he allowed himself to be immediately criticised for exaggerating the contribution. It took no time at all for a couple of politicians (one was Cameron) to appear on tele rubbishing his figures. The more times that a statement/s is/are shown to be untrue, or even wildly exaggerated, the campaign loses credibility, certainly among thinking voters anyway. The other side are very good at using figures or statistics that have an element of truth but only if you interpret the figures in the way that shows the EU in the most favourable light. Roger |
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Post by sabcat on May 24, 2016 17:13:26 GMT
The problem is that there's no vision on offer because the vision of the mainstream Brexit campaigners is downright toxic. I want to leave because the EU is run in the interests of transnational capital. Boris/Farrage et al want to leave because they believe that a UK free from the scant protection of EU social directives could be, as Paul Mason puts it, a neoliberal wonderland. Boris can't go on TV and say "vote leave so I can fuck you".
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:16:49 GMT
There is an element of truth in what you say but, in the case of Boris and the cheque into the furnace episode he was clearly shown on tele doing it so he allowed himself to be immediately criticised for exaggerating the contribution. It took no time at all for a couple of politicians (one was Cameron) to appear on tele rubbishing his figures. The more times that a statement/s is/are shown to be untrue, or even wildly exaggerated, the campaign loses credibility, certainly among thinking voters anyway. The other side are very good at using figures or statistics that have an element of truth but only if you interpret the figures in the way that shows the EU in the most favourable light. Roger I genuinely think we are going nowhere with Boris Johnson,in fact outside the South East I don't think he has either much recognition nor credibility.I think he is one of Politics most overrated Politicians and the mere fact he is rated at all shows what a dearth of talent there really is. |
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:21:02 GMT
The problem is that there's no vision on offer because the vision of the mainstream Brexit campaigners is downright toxic. I want to leave because the EU is run in the interests of transnational capital. Boris/Farrage et al want to leave because they believe that a UK free from the scant protection of EU social directives could be, as Paul Mason puts it, a neoliberal wonderland. Boris can't go on TV and say "vote leave so I can fuck you". I fear sadly that all is lost regarding the likelihood of Brexit,but I think theres a lot more shit coming down the line after we vote to remain,and none of it will be pretty. |
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Post by sabcat on May 24, 2016 17:34:24 GMT
Sure, there's got to be. The entire global economic system is fucked, central bankers the world over are calling for structural reform which in English means "fuck the workers, lower pay, lower pensions, higher retirement ages, less protection". It's not all bad though, the Tories are busy fucking themselves up over this referendum so the next 4 years are likely to be dominated by that. Labour might even have an alternative to the neoliberal orthodoxy as well although it very much remains to be seen if they can unite the party around it.
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Post by sabcat on May 24, 2016 17:35:42 GMT
Also, all is very much not lost with Brexit, it's all but inevitable and it's still possible that the vote could go the right way next month. There's so many factors up in the air for it, it's not possible to predict.
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Post by Albion on May 24, 2016 17:40:26 GMT
I fear that I agree with you but, if your final comment implies an implosion of the EU then I must disagree with that bit. Yes it should do, but it won't. The EU has always had a knack of fudging things to get the result they want or to tweak the system to achieve the ends that they want always at the 11th hour. Just look at the Greek situation to see that in action. No, we're not going to allow you to default, no we will not accept your proposals and then in the middle of the last night, oh we've found a compromise solution which is acceptable !!!! They'll do the same again to prevent a breakdown for sure. Roger |
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Post by PaulG2 on May 24, 2016 17:44:31 GMT
I'm anxious to see how the Brexit vote affects American politics, particularly the Democratic race for the nomination. Numerically, the democrat nomination is still up for grabs. Hillary has started polling dead even with Trump in national polls, with Trump ahead in a couple, whilst Bernie Sanders is consistently polling 10% to 15% ahead of Trump. Hillary currently has all the cards stacked in her favor, but the delegates at the convention just might decide that Sanders is a better bet against Trump and go with him.
The chances of that happening are slim, but it could happen because of the super delegates the DNC has. Super delegates are, by and large, elected democratic officials, such as democratic members of the House and Senate. They are politicians whose primary loyalty is to themselves. If they think Bernie Sanders has a better chance of enhancing their re-election prospects, they'll vote for Sanders to be the nominee. Inasmuch as the super delegates are professional politicians, they are going to be a lot more astute about the implications of voter attitude as it applies to the Brexit vote. I think an out vote in the UK would indicate a lot about voter attitude right now, and that it might encourage the super delegates to go against the status quo.
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