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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:47:54 GMT
Yeah again your probably right.You surely must agree with me that the BREXIT campaign definitely could do with someone.the problem I guess is that Labour endorsing the In campaign deprived Brexit of a large swathe of support.Having said that,if Labour were supporting Brexit who would you pick to front the campaign.The problem is they are all political pygmies,absolutely bereft of both gravitas and talent. I am sad that the people leading the Brexit campaign just don't seem to be getting their act together and making accurate comments that would avoid the Remain people being able to shoot holes in their arguments. Instead of Boris putting cheques for '£350,000,000 per week' into a furnace which allows the Remain crowd to say that that is a gross figure and doesn't allow for rebates and EU funding why not just say that the UK is the second largest NET contributor to the EU after Germany and that 19 of the 28 member countries are NET recipients thus illustrating that 9 member states are funding the whole farce. It's no wonder the 19 don't want any change in the EU, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. What we need is accurate info put out in a way that cannot be immediately dismissed by good representatives who appeal to the public. I have been disappointed with Boris's efforts so far and don't think that Gove has sufficient respect from much of the public after some of his previous efforts as a minister of state. Roger Cameron and Boris were almost certainly trained at Eton to debate either side of an argument by call. Those controlling the government clearly wan't to stay in the EU. Boris looks weak for a reason. It's better to plant someone making the right noises than someone who genuinely cares.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:50:25 GMT
Also, all is very much not lost with Brexit, it's all but inevitable and it's still possible that the vote could go the right way next month. There's so many factors up in the air for it, it's not possible to predict. I think your wrong about that,but nothing would give me more satisfaction than you being right. Why do I say your wrong ? a shit Brexit Campaign and a terrified Electorate.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 17:56:29 GMT
I fear that I agree with you but, if your final comment implies an implosion of the EU then I must disagree with that bit. Yes it should do, but it won't. The EU has always had a knack of fudging things to get the result they want or to tweak the system to achieve the ends that they want always at the 11th hour. Just look at the Greek situation to see that in action. No, we're not going to allow you to default, no we will not accept your proposals and then in the middle of the last night, oh we've found a compromise solution which is acceptable !!!! They'll do the same again to prevent a breakdown for sure. Roger Fair comment,but surely they can't just continue to fiddle while Rome burns,where is the Growth going to come from ? where is the capital going to be deployed ? these are big questions going unanswered.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2016 18:01:05 GMT
I am sad that the people leading the Brexit campaign just don't seem to be getting their act together and making accurate comments that would avoid the Remain people being able to shoot holes in their arguments. Instead of Boris putting cheques for '£350,000,000 per week' into a furnace which allows the Remain crowd to say that that is a gross figure and doesn't allow for rebates and EU funding why not just say that the UK is the second largest NET contributor to the EU after Germany and that 19 of the 28 member countries are NET recipients thus illustrating that 9 member states are funding the whole farce. It's no wonder the 19 don't want any change in the EU, it would be like turkeys voting for Christmas. What we need is accurate info put out in a way that cannot be immediately dismissed by good representatives who appeal to the public. I have been disappointed with Boris's efforts so far and don't think that Gove has sufficient respect from much of the public after some of his previous efforts as a minister of state. Roger Cameron and Boris were almost certainly trained at Eton to debate either side of an argument by call. Those controlling the government clearly wan't to stay in the EU. Boris looks weak for a reason. It's better to plant someone making the right noises than someone who genuinely cares. It certainly looks that way,this Brexit Campaign is going nowhere and I still firmly believe that we have the facts of the argument on our side. All the IN campaign can offer is more of the same.
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Post by sabcat on May 24, 2016 18:41:27 GMT
I fear that I agree with you but, if your final comment implies an implosion of the EU then I must disagree with that bit. Yes it should do, but it won't. The EU has always had a knack of fudging things to get the result they want or to tweak the system to achieve the ends that they want always at the 11th hour. Just look at the Greek situation to see that in action. No, we're not going to allow you to default, no we will not accept your proposals and then in the middle of the last night, oh we've found a compromise solution which is acceptable !!!! They'll do the same again to prevent a breakdown for sure. Roger The problem with the policy over Greece - extend and pretend - is that it's literally destroying the country. The conditions for the bailout cannot possibly be met and never will be met. That situation has to come to a head at some point or they will have created a failed state in the EU.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 24, 2016 19:04:57 GMT
I just don't know what will happen. ITRL the massive majority of people I meet intend to vote "out" and on forums I use regularly polls suggest about 90% in favour of Brexit, but that may just be because I work in an industry which has been so badly damaged by eu membership, and will be finished off completely if we stay in, for native born folk at any rate.
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Post by Higgs on May 24, 2016 19:21:52 GMT
The problem is that there's no vision on offer because the vision of the mainstream Brexit campaigners is downright toxic. I want to leave because the EU is run in the interests of transnational capital. Boris/Farrage et al want to leave because they believe that a UK free from the scant protection of EU social directives could be, as Paul Mason puts it, a neoliberal wonderland. Boris can't go on TV and say "vote leave so I can fuck you".
Someone like Boris could easily ride the gravy train, whatever the outcome. Remain, though, are saying; "vote stay and help us to fuck you". Each side is asking that people look at how this or that way will affect the UK. The Remain camp plead the financial aspects and arguments, the Brexit camp argue the sovereignty and independence side. The Remain camp doesn't and can't support the independence angle, that's lost with an IN vote.
Voting IN will devalue the vote we all have, our government will not have any autonomous powers in the EU. Would there be any need for a UK 'parliament' at all, except to administer Eurocentric laws and edicts; the UK Administration Commission. Staying in the EU would be an absolute administrational nightmare. How are you supposed to handle the many political movements spread throughout the EU. It's an impossible fantasy. The EU will eventually disintegrate and go the way of Yugoslavia, the USSR, the Roman Empire, the British Empire, the Ottoman Empire.
Those in favour of the EU must be so blinded by what you call Transnational economics that they will miss the ground human condition and will end up releasing a backlash of resentment.
The only way you could get an EU to work would be on a computer simulation, in the real world it won't, because it will never be accepted by many people who will have individual and independent national thought that cannot be uniformly obliged to forget they are nationally different.
If we BREXIT, the SNP would have every reason to call for another independence vote. The Scots get independence and negotiate their re-entry into the EU, our borders are vulnerable again. An alternative scenario might be: The Scots get independence and they have a referendum on whether to join the EU. Those Scots that voted for independence now have to decide what their independence actually means to them. If they want to keep their independence, they will have to vote against joining the EU. They may wish to enjoy the independence they've so longed-for. I wouldn't throw away independence so readily. Now, is financial promises in an EU stronger than independence gained.
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