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Post by peterboat on May 27, 2016 8:30:02 GMT
I have noticed since Steve Hilton jumped ship the inners are not having a good time of it. He clearly knows his onions and where the skeletons are buried, I think he might make a difference to the out campaign with his clear logical arguments, he made mincemeat of Miliband last night, and he also brought doubt to a fairly young audience who were mostly inners. I think he should be heading up the campaign for out that and we should be doing rain dances for a large storm from about 3 in the afternoon until10 in the evening fingers crossed and all that
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Post by JohnV on May 27, 2016 11:07:12 GMT
The front page of the Times this morning made for very interesting reading ! (so was yesterdays come to that)
not sure how to do a link to the digital version .........(it's re hiding details of European Army proposals till after the referendum)
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 11:21:48 GMT
The front page of the Times this morning made for very interesting reading ! (so was yesterdays come to that) not sure how to do a link to the digital version .........(it's re hiding details of European Army proposals till after the referendum) This European Army as you know John will have some implications for NATO,I haven't read the article but had heard about the proposals.
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Post by PaulG2 on May 27, 2016 13:17:50 GMT
The front page of the Times this morning made for very interesting reading ! (so was yesterdays come to that) not sure how to do a link to the digital version .........(it's re hiding details of European Army proposals till after the referendum) This European Army as you know John will have some implications for NATO,I haven't read the article but had heard about the proposals. A European Army,eh. Why? Because NATO just doesn't have enough bombs? A European army should be good for a couple hundred billion Euros a year in expenditures, eh? Maybe they can pillage and plunder to pay for themselves. Oh, wait, austerity measures never apply to the MIC. Silly me, I forgot.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 27, 2016 13:44:41 GMT
There's money in Military Stuff - in fact, you could say, a 'killing' to be made! Still, if all those millions hadn't perished in all of the wars this planet has seen, how much more overpopulated would this planet be? How can we stamp out the human need for killing and eating meat - and if we could, is it even the right thing to do? Humans are very nasty animals - however, some of them seem to be quite civilised and nice, so there is some kind of hope for the future. My cat has never tried to rob me or called me a 'Racist' or punched me in the face. He did bite the head clean of a baby squirrel though.
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Post by Deleted on May 27, 2016 16:04:09 GMT
This European Army as you know John will have some implications for NATO,I haven't read the article but had heard about the proposals. A European Army,eh. Why? Because NATO just doesn't have enough bombs? A European army should be good for a couple hundred billion Euros a year in expenditures, eh? Maybe they can pillage and plunder to pay for themselves. Oh, wait, austerity measures never apply to the MIC. Silly me, I forgot. Do you think the creation of this European Army has anything to do with American Poliicy Paul. There is no way it would be a reality without Americas acquiesce.
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Post by PaulG2 on May 27, 2016 16:47:59 GMT
A European Army,eh. Why? Because NATO just doesn't have enough bombs? A European army should be good for a couple hundred billion Euros a year in expenditures, eh? Maybe they can pillage and plunder to pay for themselves. Oh, wait, austerity measures never apply to the MIC. Silly me, I forgot. Do you think the creation of this European Army has anything to do with American Poliicy Paul. There is no way it would be a reality without Americas acquiesce. I hate to sound like a broken record, but... Our government is completely controlled by corporate interests. Congressmembers, Senators and even presidents are openly purchased like the whores they are. The seat of our government is the red light district of Washington DC, and, just like the red light district in Amsterdam, our "leaders" now prostitute themselves to their wealthy benefactors with no qualms or conscience. Multi-national corporations, weapons manufacturers and arms dealers know no international boundaries unless they happen to be in conflict and present the opportunity for an MIC profit center. That aside, I've seen absolutely no mention that I can recall in American media about a European Army. Personally, I think it's a good idea. Why are American taxpayers paying to defend Europe? It's not like you lot don't have your own resources. It really is time for NATO to disband and let Europe pay for its own defense. I don't why this would require a whole new "European Army", though, other than to put a whole lot of money into the MIC. If NATO were disbanded, and the Americans all went home, There would be plenty of bases and vehicles and military equipment and weapons to supply three armies. So you have the NATO soldiers change beanies and, presto, they are the European army. How much could a few thousand hats cost? Meanwhile, if the UK votes exit you guys don't need all that much of a standing army and navy. All you really need to do is take an attitude similar to Russia of, "Fuck you. We are a nuclear power and will nuke you if you attack us." NATO is really getting worrisome with Erdogan in control of Turkey. We've allowed him to bomb the Kurds, our only real allies in the ME and the only ally willing and able to fight against and defeat ISIS. Erdogan is using Turkey's NATO membership to protect him whilst he commits genocide. Turkey needs to be suspended from NATO and the EU needs to drop their membership application and tell them to get back when they have a functioning democracy, and their government is no longer involved in genocide.
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Post by JohnV on May 27, 2016 17:30:02 GMT
NATO is really getting worrisome with Erdogan in control of Turkey. We've allowed him to bomb the Kurds, our only real allies in the ME and the only ally willing and able to fight against and defeat ISIS. Erdogan is using Turkey's NATO membership to protect him whilst he commits genocide. Turkey needs to be suspended from NATO and the EU needs to drop their membership application and tell them to get back when they have a functioning democracy, and their government is no longer involved in genocide. ^^^^^ this in spades !!!!!
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Post by naughtyfox on May 27, 2016 17:38:13 GMT
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Post by PaulG2 on May 27, 2016 18:32:36 GMT
Erdogan sees himself as the new Caliph of Turkey. As such, he becomes the titular leader of all muslims. Turkey has a Sunni majority, but they also have a significant Shi'a population and a number of other, smaller sects. He not only has to seem fair and impartial to all of the muslims in Turkey, just to keep his grip on power, but if he wants to be the grand mufti of all islam he needs to appear impartial to all muslims, I guess. The Middle East, when it has been ruled, has been ruled by Sultans, Caliphs, strongmen and dictators. There is simply no long term history or tradition of democracy, and it is somewhat presumptuous of us to say that democracy is the only legitimate political system. If Erdogan wants to be the Caliph of Istanbul and thereby the leader of all muslims and then he tells all muslims to get along, more power to him! But that doesn't mean he gets to rule Turkey with an iron fist or practice genocide on the Kurds.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 27, 2016 18:52:31 GMT
this European Army has anything to do with American Poliicy Paul. There is no way it would be a reality without Americas acquiesce. The two things are bedfellows, the US and the eu is a joint expansionist empire which is slowly but surely surrounding Russia- I think Turkey in the eu and then Ukrainian negotiations will be the final straw for Moscow- I think the Third World War will be fought over Ukraine. There's also the point that this alliance is destabilising previously content people throughout Africa and Asia, which is in turn causing us own own social problems. I expect I'm pissing in the wind here, but the eu is one club I seriously do not want to be a member of.
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Post by macwolfelee on May 28, 2016 9:30:22 GMT
I hate to sound like a broken record, but... Our government is completely controlled by corporate interests. Congressmembers, Senators and even presidents are openly purchased like the whores they are. The seat of our government is the red light district of Washington DC, and, just like the red light district in Amsterdam, our "leaders" now prostitute themselves to their wealthy benefactors with no qualms or conscience. Multi-national corporations, weapons manufacturers and arms dealers know no international boundaries unless they happen to be in conflict and present the opportunity for an MIC profit center. That aside, I've seen absolutely no mention that I can recall in American media about a European Army. Personally, I think it's a good idea. Why are American taxpayers paying to defend Europe? It's not like you lot don't have your own resources. It really is time for NATO to disband and let Europe pay for its own defense. I don't why this would require a whole new "European Army", though, other than to put a whole lot of money into the MIC. If NATO were disbanded, and the Americans all went home, There would be plenty of bases and vehicles and military equipment and weapons to supply three armies. So you have the NATO soldiers change beanies and, presto, they are the European army. How much could a few thousand hats cost? Meanwhile, if the UK votes exit you guys don't need all that much of a standing army and navy. All you really need to do is take an attitude similar to Russia of, "Fuck you. We are a nuclear power and will nuke you if you attack us." NATO is really getting worrisome with Erdogan in control of Turkey. We've allowed him to bomb the Kurds, our only real allies in the ME and the only ally willing and able to fight against and defeat ISIS. Erdogan is using Turkey's NATO membership to protect him whilst he commits genocide. Turkey needs to be suspended from NATO and the EU needs to drop their membership application and tell them to get back when they have a functioning democracy, and their government is no longer involved in genocide.
This is the most serious, realistic summary of the subject I have read. The European Army is a step in the right direction of the United States of Europe. There is probably a backlash against millions (billions?) of US taxpayers money being spent defending states most Americans don't care about (and some have never heard of). If as seems increasingly possible, the Trump is the next president, then Europe may increasingly have to look to its own defence, and if Brexit occurs there is no way we would be able to go it alone defence-wise.
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Post by Higgs on May 28, 2016 10:07:03 GMT
It was some time ago mentioned on Radio 4 that there is a plan for the EU to have their own member on the security council of the UN, removing the UK and France from this security council.
Listening to Question Time, last night, it appears that the REMAIN supporters are not concerned with democracy; "the benefits of staying in will outweigh that concern", in other words.
It does not surprise me. The REMAIN camp consists of an arrogant bunch who consider the economic consideration worthy enough to dismiss the importance of the democratic vote. They are proposing to buy voting and separate the voter from the right it gives to the voter to elect the government that will control their lives. Since when have a bunch of accountants been the protectors of anything but themselves. Shuffling money around is the extent of their expertise, and they're non too brilliant at doing that. Well, they do manage to contrive ways for the minority to have their butter spread on both sides.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 28, 2016 11:54:10 GMT
"if Brexit occurs there is no way we would be able to go it alone defence-wise."
I think you just need atom bombs, the means to lob them, and the stuff that goes inside them. It's really a stale mate after that. Britain certainly doesn't need Brussel's permission for anything, if it cares not to. Anyway - how comes it's all shifted to Brussels - I thought Strasbourg was supposed to be the seat of the European Parliament?
Yup, a fistful of nuclear warheads so that other nations don't bother us; then the Brits can get on with reconstructing the railways that Beeching put out of action, and concentrate on restoring the canals and Britain's own industry. Cutting the population in half would also help. Britain's industry should be turning out quality products that last more than 5 minutes (as with the Chinese imports) and made in ways that consider the environment.
Still.... sod the environment! Let's drive to Crick in our motor cars for the Boat Show and all the fancy new gizmos on offer!
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Post by peterboat on May 31, 2016 22:40:37 GMT
BBC 2 tonight more propaganda of how bad it will be if we leave dressed up to be fair but I suspect that most will see it for what it was lies!!
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