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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2016 9:41:12 GMT
We're voting as the UK now. Ok, the Scots didn't feel confident about their economic prospects to go it alone and take their independence. That doesn't mean the Scots don't want independence. It was a close vote at the time of the independence vote.
There is a difference between being attached to the UK for economic reasons and also being attached to the EU. If the Scots vote to Remain, the chances of independence would be pushed way into the distance. Voting Brexit would allow some extension to Scotland's economic prospects through UK union without being too much out on a limb. If the UK retains its independence and votes Brexit, Scotland would keep some prospect of independence alive. Voting remain will kill it.
And I repeat my quote of your previous post.
"I'm not concerned about jobs being reserved for Scots. Why should I be?" How would that sound coming from an Englishman, a Romanian or a Polish person?
I'm going to have to appeal to someone to interpret the thinking behind all that. Genuinely, any logic or relevance completely escapes me, even allowing for a different point of view.
As to your repeated last line, well it wouldn't sound very good coming from any of those nationalities, but coming from me it indicates an international outlook, which is sadly lacking in this country.
Don't look at me,I am lost too
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Post by Higgs on Jun 4, 2016 9:41:19 GMT
We're voting as the UK now. Ok, the Scots didn't feel confident about their economic prospects to go it alone and take their independence. That doesn't mean the Scots don't want independence. It was a close vote at the time of the independence vote.
There is a difference between being attached to the UK for economic reasons and also being attached to the EU. If the Scots vote to Remain, the chances of independence would be pushed way into the distance. Voting Brexit would allow some extension to Scotland's economic prospects through UK union without being too much out on a limb. If the UK retains its independence and votes Brexit, Scotland would keep some prospect of independence alive. Voting remain will kill it.
And I repeat my quote of your previous post.
"I'm not concerned about jobs being reserved for Scots. Why should I be?" How would that sound coming from an Englishman, a Romanian or a Polish person?
I'm going to have to appeal to someone to interpret the thinking behind all that. Genuinely, any logic or relevance completely escapes me, even allowing for a different point of view.
As to your repeated last line, well it wouldn't sound very good coming from any of those nationalities, but coming from me it indicates an international outlook, which is sadly lacking in this country.
I'm a bit preoccupied working on me boat, for its boat safety in a week. It makes dwelling on the subject of this conversation difficult. But, I don't think I'm any less aware of the international perspective. I happen to think that the EU is an unnecessary and artificial setup. I think its idealistic and impractical. It is beyond the abilities of the politicians to control. Hardly any of the pros have had much to say about the impact Schengen is having, it's glossed over and couched in economic distractions.
The EU is an accounting and business scheme. It should have remained a market with no designs to interfere with the communities people have lived in and grown up in. The scheme is an arrogant wet dream for politicians and business. It will end up destroying communities. Politicians and the business minded are very good at looking at the big picture, not very good at the people detail. I can't understand what Corbyn is going on about with - we'll lose workers' rights. Where does he live, has he looked at workers rights recently. I'm an agency worker, I can tell you what it feels like to be fired in 5 minutes, surplus to requirements. There's also a significant number of Euro workers, who maybe coincidentally, managed to be missed when staff are reduced.
Where's the friggin houses? Politicians are not good with these little details that should follow their big ideas. Where's the massive expansion of the NHS. You're wanting people to place their faith in bags of wind.
I'm afraid that I can't follow your logic either. I know the community I grew up in and I'm not too ashamed to want to protect its essence.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2016 9:45:26 GMT
I'm going to have to appeal to someone to interpret the thinking behind all that. Genuinely, any logic or relevance completely escapes me, even allowing for a different point of view.
As to your repeated last line, well it wouldn't sound very good coming from any of those nationalities, but coming from me it indicates an international outlook, which is sadly lacking in this country.
I'm a bit preoccupied working on me boat, for its boat safety in a week. It makes dwelling on the subject of this conversation difficult. But, I don't think I'm any less aware of the international perspective. I happen to think that the EU is an unnecessary and artificial setup. I think its idealistic and impractical. It is beyond the abilities of the politicians to control. Hardly any of the pros have had much to say about the impact Schengen is having, it's glossed over and couched in economic distractions.
The EU is an accounting and business scheme. It should have remained a market with no designs to interfere with the communities people have lived in and grown up in. The scheme is an arrogant wet dream for politicians and business. It will end up destroying communities. Politicians and the business minded are very good at looking at the big picture, not very good at the people detail. I can't understand what Corbyn is going on about with - we'll lose workers' rights. Where does he live, has he looked at workers rights recently. I'm an agency worker, I can tell you what it feels like to be fired in 5 minutes, surplus to requirements. There's also a significant number of Euro workers, who maybe coincidentally, managed to be missed when staff are reduced.
Where's the friggin houses? Politicians are not good with these little details that should follow their big ideas. Where's the massive expansion of the NHS. You're wanting people to place their faith in bags of wind.
I'm afraid that I can't follow your logic either. I know the community I grew up in and I'm not too ashamed to want to protect its essence.
I agree with what you say,and I find both Corbyn and the TUC role in this disgraceful.
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Post by peterboat on Jun 4, 2016 10:14:59 GMT
ALEXAKOSAlex 9m you think? Thr EU is fallng apart and the Brexit will be the final tug. But when you have a splinter ist best you pull it out fast so the healing can begin. Get out UK!! The latest from Alex my Greek forum friend things are really shit over there I love these little ditties of Peters,theres a Monty Python Sketch there somewhere, Hi Paul Alex has a twizy same as me, he used to have a Delorian but sold it as he could no longer afford it. His view of Greece has surprised members on the Twizy forum and some of the people on there are upset that he thinks the EU will kill our country like it has Greece. The issue for me is that if more people thought like Alex and told us the truth this whole dreadful Euro experiment would die!!
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Post by Higgs on Jun 4, 2016 10:16:35 GMT
I agree with what you say,and I find both Corbyn and the TUC role in this disgraceful.
I'm rapidly going off Corbyn. Osborne yesterday said, jobs would go to Europe if we leave. I imagine he was going on about the financial and businesses. Obviously, no loyalty to a country or its inhabitants. The EU is an out and out business scheme. If we were living in the 'lap of luxury' because of these people, I'd be more convinced of their sincerely wanting people to prosper. There is absolutely no point to their plans if they cannot deliver down to the street level; they can't, they haven't, they won't.
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 4, 2016 22:58:22 GMT
I'm a bit preoccupied working on me boat, for its boat safety in a week. It makes dwelling on the subject of this conversation difficult. But, I don't think I'm any less aware of the international perspective. I happen to think that the EU is an unnecessary and artificial setup. I think its idealistic and impractical. It is beyond the abilities of the politicians to control. Hardly any of the pros have had much to say about the impact Schengen is having, it's glossed over and couched in economic distractions.
The EU is an accounting and business scheme. It should have remained a market with no designs to interfere with the communities people have lived in and grown up in. The scheme is an arrogant wet dream for politicians and business. It will end up destroying communities. Politicians and the business minded are very good at looking at the big picture, not very good at the people detail. I can't understand what Corbyn is going on about with - we'll lose workers' rights. Where does he live, has he looked at workers rights recently. I'm an agency worker, I can tell you what it feels like to be fired in 5 minutes, surplus to requirements. There's also a significant number of Euro workers, who maybe coincidentally, managed to be missed when staff are reduced.
Where's the friggin houses? Politicians are not good with these little details that should follow their big ideas. Where's the massive expansion of the NHS. You're wanting people to place their faith in bags of wind.
I'm afraid that I can't follow your logic either. I know the community I grew up in and I'm not too ashamed to want to protect its essence.
OK, so you seem to be saying that the EU has interfered with communities. The community I grew up in was a shipbuilding and mining town which totally changed long before we were members of the EU, because of economic conditions which were absolutely nothing to do with that organisation. National Governments are just as capable of destroying communities as any supranational body. Thatcher was particularly good at it, as were on the other side, dinosaur union leaders.
The EU has in fact probably done more to benefit local communities throughout Europe than any national government has, by their enlightened attitude to regional development, environmental protection, and infrastructure on a local level. On countless occasions travelling the waterways I have come across notices telling me that this and that project has been partially funded by the EU.
None of the things you complain about would be any better if we were separated from Europe. You don't think for one moment that any UK government we are likely to get in the foreseeable future is going to be capable of managing things any better, do you? The only difference would be that we would lose a huge trading market as Europe fragments, pulled apart by nationalistic forces encouraged by the success of small-minded Little Brits. And don't kid yourself that we could just continue to trade as before. The resentment in Europe would be huge, and we would be isolated as we have never been before. No other European country wants us to leave, but if we are pig-headed enough to vote to do so, then they will say "Sod you, you're on your own now". Just as the Westminster government would quite rightly say to Scots if we voted for independence.
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Post by Higgs on Jun 5, 2016 8:34:57 GMT
I'm a bit preoccupied working on me boat, for its boat safety in a week. It makes dwelling on the subject of this conversation difficult. But, I don't think I'm any less aware of the international perspective. I happen to think that the EU is an unnecessary and artificial setup. I think its idealistic and impractical. It is beyond the abilities of the politicians to control. Hardly any of the pros have had much to say about the impact Schengen is having, it's glossed over and couched in economic distractions.
The EU is an accounting and business scheme. It should have remained a market with no designs to interfere with the communities people have lived in and grown up in. The scheme is an arrogant wet dream for politicians and business. It will end up destroying communities. Politicians and the business minded are very good at looking at the big picture, not very good at the people detail. I can't understand what Corbyn is going on about with - we'll lose workers' rights. Where does he live, has he looked at workers rights recently. I'm an agency worker, I can tell you what it feels like to be fired in 5 minutes, surplus to requirements. There's also a significant number of Euro workers, who maybe coincidentally, managed to be missed when staff are reduced.
Where's the friggin houses? Politicians are not good with these little details that should follow their big ideas. Where's the massive expansion of the NHS. You're wanting people to place their faith in bags of wind.
I'm afraid that I can't follow your logic either. I know the community I grew up in and I'm not too ashamed to want to protect its essence.
OK, so you seem to be saying that the EU has interfered with communities. The community I grew up in was a shipbuilding and mining town which totally changed long before we were members of the EU, because of economic conditions which were absolutely nothing to do with that organisation. National Governments are just as capable of destroying communities as any supranational body. Thatcher was particularly good at it, as were on the other side, dinosaur union leaders.
The EU has in fact probably done more to benefit local communities throughout Europe than any national government has, by their enlightened attitude to regional development, environmental protection, and infrastructure on a local level. On countless occasions travelling the waterways I have come across notices telling me that this and that project has been partially funded by the EU.
None of the things you complain about would be any better if we were separated from Europe. You don't think for one moment that any UK government we are likely to get in the foreseeable future is going to be capable of managing things any better, do you? The only difference would be that we would lose a huge trading market as Europe fragments, pulled apart by nationalistic forces encouraged by the success of small-minded Little Brits. And don't kid yourself that we could just continue to trade as before. The resentment in Europe would be huge, and we would be isolated as we have never been before. No other European country wants us to leave, but if we are pig-headed enough to vote to do so, then they will say "Sod you, you're on your own now". Just as the Westminster government would quite rightly say to Scots if we voted for independence.
I never thought for one moment that you seemed to be in any way inclined to change your mind. I'm not arguing an economic argument. The EU started as a trade deal, that is all it still is.
I don't expect things to get better or worse with Brexit, I'm just not going to be conned by a business scheme dressed up as 'enlightened'. It's bog standard trade and commerce. You don't need a fecking Euro parliament for that. The business sector may be deluded enough to think they're worth it, but I don't.
They're wind bags - looks full, but totally empty.
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 5, 2016 9:25:56 GMT
Ah but it's not just trade and commerce, is it. It's political, and for that you need politicians. Many people wish that it had stayed just a trade agreement, and that is the cause of most of the arguments now. I'm not of that mind. I'm a full-blown 'United States of Europe' man, with full integration at all levels above the local. Like the USA, to give an entity as powerful as that nation but less paranoid and self-obsessed.
I'm aware that my vision is not shared by many in the UK, but there are more in the rest of Europe with this aim.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 5, 2016 10:23:35 GMT
Ah but it's not just trade and commerce, is it. It's political, and for that you need politicians. Many people wish that it had stayed just a trade agreement, and that is the cause of most of the arguments now. I'm not of that mind. I'm a full-blown 'United States of Europe' man, with full integration at all levels above the local. Like the USA, to give an entity as powerful as that nation but less paranoid and self-obsessed.
I'm aware that my vision is not shared by many in the UK, but there are more in the rest of Europe with this aim. That's me for one, when we voted to stay in last time (I personally would have voted differently if we had been given the option before joining) (Thank you Mr bloody Heath et al) We were told by all and sundry that it was purely a free trade area, definitely not the start of the road to a "United States of Europe" No sir !!! cross my heart and hope to die Sir !!! I was young in those days ...... that was before I learned the mantra that politicians always lie.They are doing exactly the same this time ........ They will tell you what ever you want to hear as long as the decision goes the way they want it to.
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Post by Higgs on Jun 5, 2016 11:08:15 GMT
The remain are trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. They give you the picture of the ideal and turn it into a ready meal that's full of crap: a bit like the picture of a fantastic meal on the package, but leaving much to be desired in the actual contents.
The EU is nothing more than a cartel trying to use the prestige of bonded countries to make it seem more palatable.
How long has it taken us to fight for votes for all in this country. I'm becoming quite insulted that we're being asked to abandoned this for economic reasons. It's not for sale. Just being able to vote is not enough, it's being able to vote to give powers to the parliament that sits in the country, not for a parliament that doesn't. Apart from any other reasons I may have to vote Brexit, maintaining that use of my vote is the primary one.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 12:38:31 GMT
Ah but it's not just trade and commerce, is it. It's political, and for that you need politicians. Many people wish that it had stayed just a trade agreement, and that is the cause of most of the arguments now. I'm not of that mind. I'm a full-blown 'United States of Europe' man, with full integration at all levels above the local. Like the USA, to give an entity as powerful as that nation but less paranoid and self-obsessed.
I'm aware that my vision is not shared by many in the UK, but there are more in the rest of Europe with this aim. People with your opinions will lead us to oblivion as a Nation,Europe is going absolutely nowhere and you know it . All you can promise is more of the same and you even have the gall to admit that too. "Full Blown United States of Europe Man" ? how unpalatable is that, your views would be more welcome if you had "Full Blown Aids" I can never get over this fascination of yours with total integration,all it serves is the Capitalist not the man in the street, he just stagnates,working for nothing,retiring never,while the Health Service,Education System and any Social Housing is swamped by people from the four corners of the earth who have contributed "Fuck All" to its upkeep or creation. This is our last chance to take back control,hold people to account and not just our own lazy politicians,but the useless feckless brain dead bastards who are indigenous to Britain and believe they are owed a living,that think pregnancy gives them rights,these Scum want annihilation. There are still some decent British People that believe in this country,not necessarily Flag Wavers but people that are appalled by the European Experiment,they judge Brexit to be their best hope of some change and for all our sakes lets hope they carry the day because we are going nowhere remaining like this.
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 5, 2016 17:05:55 GMT
I'm afraid those who imagine that their parliamentary vote counts for much are sadly deluded. This applies to almost every so-called democratic system in the world. Power lies in The Establishment who will not easily let it go. This applies to the EU as well as the UK. In addition, governments of every colour are hamstrung by world events and economic conditions.
So why bother? Well this vote in a couple of weeks is one of the few in my lifetime to potentially really affect world politics. Although as I said before, the EU does seem to be more enlightened about some things than successive UK governments, which you must admit have been pretty dire, the Establishment still rules. But I would rather be ruled by a powerful multinational Establishment which can wield influence in the world.
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 5, 2016 17:11:07 GMT
People with your opinions will lead us to oblivion as a Nation,Europe is going absolutely nowhere and you know it . All you can promise is more of the same and you even have the gall to admit that too. "Full Blown United States of Europe Man" ? how unpalatable is that, your views would be more welcome if you had "Full Blown Aids" I can never get over this fascination of yours with total integration,all it serves is the Capitalist not the man in the street, he just stagnates,working for nothing,retiring never,while the Health Service,Education System and any Social Housing is swamped by people from the four corners of the earth who have contributed "Fuck All" to its upkeep or creation. This is our last chance to take back control,hold people to account and not just our own lazy politicians,but the useless feckless brain dead bastards who are indigenous to Britain and believe they are owed a living,that think pregnancy gives them rights,these Scum want annihilation. There are still some decent British People that believe in this country,not necessarily Flag Wavers but people that are appalled by the European Experiment,they judge Brexit to be their best hope of some change and for all our sakes lets hope they carry the day because we are going nowhere remaining like this. What a magnificent Fascist rant!
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Post by smileypete on Jun 5, 2016 17:15:47 GMT
The elephant in the room is immigration, many don't want the EU to effectively contol our borders.
I have some respect for Corbyn but he's being strangely quiet on this, his earlier comments aren't encouraging...
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 18:43:06 GMT
I'm afraid those who imagine that their parliamentary vote counts for much are sadly deluded. This applies to almost every so-called democratic system in the world. Power lies in The Establishment who will not easily let it go. This applies to the EU as well as the UK. In addition, governments of every colour are hamstrung by world events and economic conditions.
So why bother? Well this vote in a couple of weeks is one of the few in my lifetime to potentially really affect world politics. Although as I said before, the EU does seem to be more enlightened about some things than successive UK governments, which you must admit have been pretty dire, the Establishment still rules. But I would rather be ruled by a powerful multinational Establishment which can wield influence in the world. You see that is the trouble with you,there are moments when you are perfectly lucid and reasonable,your first paragraph being an example. Your second paragraph talks of enlightenment and how that "Torch" rests best with the EU despite the fact that in the first paragraph you freely admit that power in the EU lies within "The Establishment" just as it does in the UK.My immediate point there is that I have more chance of removing the Establishment in the UK through the Ballot Box,I have NO CHANCE of removing it within Europe. Its your last sentence that denies you any credibility whatsoever and I think to myself,this man is just wedded to Dogma,he has thought nothing through, but has simply pulled on his EU T SHIRT as a badge of convenience."I would rather be ruled by a powerful MULTINATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT which can wield influence in the world". Thats not for me sir,I want to get "Back to the Egg" and build a more decent fairer cohesive society that will in turn, impact upon Europe in a positive way, by putting the " Great " back in Britain.
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