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Post by Higgs on Jun 5, 2016 18:49:17 GMT
I'm afraid those who imagine that their parliamentary vote counts for much are sadly deluded. This applies to almost every so-called democratic system in the world. Power lies in The Establishment who will not easily let it go. This applies to the EU as well as the UK. In addition, governments of every colour are hamstrung by world events and economic conditions.
So why bother? Well this vote in a couple of weeks is one of the few in my lifetime to potentially really affect world politics. Although as I said before, the EU does seem to be more enlightened about some things than successive UK governments, which you must admit have been pretty dire, the Establishment still rules. But I would rather be ruled by a powerful multinational Establishment which can wield influence in the world.
There are flaws in democracy and first past the post instead proportional representation. Our governments' CV's do not fill one with confidence. The party in government does not have the majority of electorate votes. The gap between rich and poor has become wider. The NHS is in meltdown and heading for privatisation, possibly in the American way, by insurance policies. There's a mega housing shortage. We're subsidising private companies. They cut down the police force. They can't afford to man the borders with staff. Deregulation of banks did nothing but allow insane twats to run amok. Global companies do not pay their taxes. MP's and EMP's cream off the state with their expenses and perks.
And you want to give them more power. They've had over forty years in the EU to do something, you could give them another forty years to do the same amount of something. I want to keep what little bit of deluded control I have over these w@nkers.
If I was the government, expecting an uncontrolled number of people to enter the country, I think I'd have been expecting to need more houses, to prepare. Show me where the willing is in the preparations. They've started as they mean to go, No BACKING PLAN, no support. Any person looking at a job would estimate the materials needed to do the job. They haven't got the foresight of a plumber between them.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely"
You seem to be more interested in power than people.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 5, 2016 18:55:41 GMT
People with your opinions will lead us to oblivion as a Nation,Europe is going absolutely nowhere and you know it . All you can promise is more of the same and you even have the gall to admit that too. "Full Blown United States of Europe Man" ? how unpalatable is that, your views would be more welcome if you had "Full Blown Aids" I can never get over this fascination of yours with total integration,all it serves is the Capitalist not the man in the street, he just stagnates,working for nothing,retiring never,while the Health Service,Education System and any Social Housing is swamped by people from the four corners of the earth who have contributed "Fuck All" to its upkeep or creation. This is our last chance to take back control,hold people to account and not just our own lazy politicians,but the useless feckless brain dead bastards who are indigenous to Britain and believe they are owed a living,that think pregnancy gives them rights,these Scum want annihilation. There are still some decent British People that believe in this country,not necessarily Flag Wavers but people that are appalled by the European Experiment,they judge Brexit to be their best hope of some change and for all our sakes lets hope they carry the day because we are going nowhere remaining like this. What a magnificent Fascist rant! AAH the classic "Rubbish the Post Technique" but its all true,isn't it ?
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Post by peterboat on Jun 5, 2016 21:37:15 GMT
Now Sir Jon Major is in full rant as well, I suspect the inners are getting very scared now all they can employ is the world will end tactics. I was out on the boat this weekend Brexit is what everyone is talking about the problem for the inners is that the streets of Doncaster are full of homeless people, nearly all British. For them it is all about surviving people are seeing this and asking why are we allowing more people into the country when we cant look after and home our own? The country is full to bursting yet the inners would have us believe that there is plenty of room for another Manchester every 5 years!! The fortunate thing is that every vote counts, and people that are suffering the most from overpopulation can see why the EU is destroying their lives, they arnt bothered about the big market and all the other stuff the inners spout they just want to live somewhere and have enough to eat and drink and they know that immigration is destroying that goal. As an after thought Steve Hilton want a live debate with Cameron but guess who is scared of doing that? looks like very soon the Murdoch press will be letting out the truths that knows about the inners lies could be very interesting
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Post by Delta9 on Jun 5, 2016 21:51:32 GMT
"Murdoch Press"
"Truths"
Lol
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Post by Trina on Jun 5, 2016 22:32:29 GMT
WHATEVER...I am out. I want this country to be ours again.At the end of the day you are an inny or an outy.Whatever people's reasons are-pretty sure they have decided by now.In,out or shakin it all about...people who are actually going to vote will have already made their choice.
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Post by peterboat on Jun 5, 2016 22:48:55 GMT
"Murdoch Press" "Truths" Lol Its terrible but true Steve Hilton has thrown in his hat with Murdoch a well known outer although there are tweets out there say he is going to change his mind but I think they might be a double bluff
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Post by Saltysplash on Jun 6, 2016 5:55:49 GMT
WHATEVER...I am out. I want this country to be ours again.At the end of the day you are an inny or an outy.Whatever people's reasons are-pretty sure they have decided by now.In,out or shakin it all about...people who are actually going to vote will have already made their choice. Hear her
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 6, 2016 22:55:12 GMT
What a magnificent Fascist rant! AAH the classic "Rubbish the Post Technique" but its all true,isn't it ? No really, I was really impressed. But it was just fascist through and through, wasn't it?
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Post by macwolfelee on Jun 6, 2016 23:29:39 GMT
You see that is the trouble with you,there are moments when you are perfectly lucid and reasonable,your first paragraph being an example. Your second paragraph talks of enlightenment and how that "Torch" rests best with the EU despite the fact that in the first paragraph you freely admit that power in the EU lies within "The Establishment" just as it does in the UK.My immediate point there is that I have more chance of removing the Establishment in the UK through the Ballot Box,I have NO CHANCE of removing it within Europe. Its your last sentence that denies you any credibility whatsoever and I think to myself,this man is just wedded to Dogma,he has thought nothing through, but has simply pulled on his EU T SHIRT as a badge of convenience."I would rather be ruled by a powerful MULTINATIONAL ESTABLISHMENT which can wield influence in the world". Thats not for me sir,I want to get "Back to the Egg" and build a more decent fairer cohesive society that will in turn, impact upon Europe in a positive way, by putting the " Great " back in Britain. You think that any establishment wielding power in a 'democratic' country can be removed through the Ballot Box? Then you are naïve as well as misguided. The only way that can be done is by revolution, usually violent, and virtually always resulting in a new establishment to replace the old. Do you want revolution? If you do, then fair enough, but I don't.
The economic woes of this country and many others, such as they are, originated long before the EU took its present form and are caused by firstly a massive expansion of debt, ie imaginary money, and secondly by globalisation in every sphere, whereby the poor people of the world have realised that they are poor and the West (in a general sense) is rich, and they are now trying to do something about it.
This is a process which cannot be stopped. If the poor are to get richer, then the rich (us) will get poorer. There is no going back to past glory days. The country will not 'be made great again'.
How does the EU come into this? Well there are other considerations beside economics. There is geopolitics. The UK by itself will have zilch influence in the world. We won't even be trusted any more, as we appear to be now by most countries, because we will have renegued on a settled treaty and disrupted our partners' futures. We are still a nuclear power, but that is a dangerous anachronism. Only as part of the EU will we have any chance of steering Europe the way it should go and influencing world events. I do not want to live in a country which is reviled by its neighbours.
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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 7, 2016 0:01:32 GMT
You think that any establishment wielding power in a 'democratic' country can be removed through the Ballot Box? Then you are naïve as well as misguided. The only way that can be done is by revolution, usually violent, and virtually always resulting in a new establishment to replace the old. Do you want revolution? If you do, then fair enough, but I don't.
1) The economic woes of this country and many others, such as they are, originated long before the EU took its present form and are caused by firstly a massive expansion of debt, ie imaginary money, and secondly by globalisation in every sphere, whereby the poor people of the world have realised that they are poor and the West (in a general sense) is rich, and they are now trying to do something about it.
2) This is a process which cannot be stopped. If the poor are to get richer, then the rich (us) will get poorer. There is no going back to past glory days. The country will not 'be made great again'.
3) How does the EU come into this? Well there are other considerations beside economics. There is geopolitics. The UK by itself will have zilch influence in the world. We won't even be trusted any more, as we appear to be now by most countries, because we will have renegued on a settled treaty and disrupted our partners' futures. We are still a nuclear power, but that is a dangerous anachronism. Only as part of the EU will we have any chance of steering Europe the way it should go and influencing world events. I do not want to live in a country which is reviled by its neighbours.
I've taken the liberty of adding some numbers to your paragraphs above as they raise different issues. 1) You are decrying globalization, but refuse to accept the part that the EU plays in globalization. By making the government more removed and less controlled by the people it affects, the politicians, who are all paid-for whores of the 1%, are able to do the wishes of the corporate masters with little fear of people like you and me. And whilst a British soldier might hesitate to fire upon another British person in the event that insurrection is necessary, a Romanian soldier in a multi-national EU Army would probably have no such qualms. You really should study what is happening in the United States, we are your future if you remain in the EU, and it ain't pretty here. 2) This statement has no basis in fact. Wealth is not a finite commodity that has to shared by all on earth. Wealth can be created, as in extracting minerals from the ground, or making things that people want to money. Money is just a convenient accounting method. Before money, gold determined wealth; before that it was cattle. Real estate has always been a factor in wealth. 3) You're all over the place in 3). Nations break and re-negotiate treaties all the time. People worldwide are finally catching on to the fact that the so-called "Fair Trade Agreements" that our governments have been foisting on us for the last 40 years are actually nothing more than "Corporate Rights and Privileges Agreements" that benefit no one except the multi-national corporations that write the treaties and then profit from them. The idea that the UK wouldn't be trusted after a Brexit is absurd. Just exactly who would do all of the "not trusting"? Other than Europe, few people in the world even know about Brexit, let alone care. I dare say that a Brexit would serve notice on the EU governance that they have gone too far with their policies, and hopefully encourage some changes that benefit the common folks more than the 1%. So the Brexit would a slap in the face to the powers that be in Europe, and that would be good for all Europeans, not bad. A Brexit could also facilitate a Grexit, and the EU just might come up with some solutions other than austerity for the Greeks in order to keep them in the EU. If not, the Greeks can leave too. No one is going to revile the UK, or its people, if you leave. As far as global influence goes, wtf does that have to do with anything and why do you care if the UK has global influence or not? Global influence in the 21st century has so far meant becoming a co-sponsor of the USA's misbegotten and illegal MIC profit centers, aka wars and military invasions of defenseless countries. Is that what you want for your grandchildren? You do understand, don't you, that the wars your desire for global influence require cost British taxpayers billions upon billions of pounds, money that could be spent on infrastructure or pensions or education - there are all kind of things that money is better spent on than wars.
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Post by PaulG2 on Jun 7, 2016 1:28:30 GMT
What has become of the Commonwealth? Aren't there trade agreements between Commonwealth members? At one time the Commonwealth accounted for 1/3 of the world population and about 17% of world GDP.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 5:27:22 GMT
You think that any establishment wielding power in a 'democratic' country can be removed through the Ballot Box? Then you are naïve as well as misguided. The only way that can be done is by revolution, usually violent, and virtually always resulting in a new establishment to replace the old. Do you want revolution? If you do, then fair enough, but I don't.
1) The economic woes of this country and many others, such as they are, originated long before the EU took its present form and are caused by firstly a massive expansion of debt, ie imaginary money, and secondly by globalisation in every sphere, whereby the poor people of the world have realised that they are poor and the West (in a general sense) is rich, and they are now trying to do something about it.
2) This is a process which cannot be stopped. If the poor are to get richer, then the rich (us) will get poorer. There is no going back to past glory days. The country will not 'be made great again'.
3) How does the EU come into this? Well there are other considerations beside economics. There is geopolitics. The UK by itself will have zilch influence in the world. We won't even be trusted any more, as we appear to be now by most countries, because we will have renegued on a settled treaty and disrupted our partners' futures. We are still a nuclear power, but that is a dangerous anachronism. Only as part of the EU will we have any chance of steering Europe the way it should go and influencing world events. I do not want to live in a country which is reviled by its neighbours.
I've taken the liberty of adding some numbers to your paragraphs above as they raise different issues. 1) You are decrying globalization, but refuse to accept the part that the EU plays in globalization. By making the government more removed and less controlled by the people it affects, the politicians, who are all paid-for whores of the 1%, are able to do the wishes of the corporate masters with little fear of people like you and me. And whilst a British soldier might hesitate to fire upon another British person in the event that insurrection is necessary, a Romanian soldier in a multi-national EU Army would probably have no such qualms. You really should study what is happening in the United States, we are your future if you remain in the EU, and it ain't pretty here. 2) This statement has no basis in fact. Wealth is not a finite commodity that has to shared by all on earth. Wealth can be created, as in extracting minerals from the ground, or making things that people want to money. Money is just a convenient accounting method. Before money, gold determined wealth; before that it was cattle. Real estate has always been a factor in wealth. 3) You're all over the place in 3). Nations break and re-negotiate treaties all the time. People worldwide are finally catching on to the fact that the so-called "Fair Trade Agreements" that our governments have been foisting on us for the last 40 years are actually nothing more than "Corporate Rights and Privileges Agreements" that benefit no one except the multi-national corporations that write the treaties and then profit from them. The idea that the UK wouldn't be trusted after a Brexit is absurd. Just exactly who would do all of the "not trusting"? Other than Europe, few people in the world even know about Brexit, let alone care. I dare say that a Brexit would serve notice on the EU governance that they have gone too far with their policies, and hopefully encourage some changes that benefit the common folks more than the 1%. So the Brexit would a slap in the face to the powers that be in Europe, and that would be good for all Europeans, not bad. A Brexit could also facilitate a Grexit, and the EU just might come up with some solutions other than austerity for the Greeks in order to keep them in the EU. If not, the Greeks can leave too. No one is going to revile the UK, or its people, if you leave. As far as global influence goes, wtf does that have to do with anything and why do you care if the UK has global influence or not? Global influence in the 21st century has so far meant becoming a co-sponsor of the USA's misbegotten and illegal MIC profit centers, aka wars and military invasions of defenseless countries. Is that what you want for your grandchildren? You do understand, don't you, that the wars your desire for global influence require cost British taxpayers billions upon billions of pounds, money that could be spent on infrastructure or pensions or education - there are all kind of things that money is better spent on than wars. I think I don't have much new to add to what I already have said,PaulG2 puts it more succinctly than I ever could especially point 3). I believe you have thrown the Kitchen Sink at this supposition of yours about European Revulsion regarding BREXIT,you make no mention of the opposition to Europe already in existence in some of these countries,some indeed calling for their own Brexit,so I consider European Revulsion as both irrelevant if it does exist and suggest that it probably doesn't.As for Global Influence,I consider that perverted desire to be the cause of some horrendous actions,from illegal wars to propping up corrupt dictatorships till it suits,then destabilising these countries and calling for regime change(Syria).Global Influence means little to the man on the street,in fact you would struggle to name an occasion since world war 2 when Britain and her supposed Global Influence accomplished anything of much merit indeed the irony of Britain standing alone during the last war apart from the rest of Europe should not be lost on you. As for Revolution,I certainly have no fear,in fact I welcome Radical Change,I believe Britain should undergo a period of isolationism as we attempt to get a handle on our objectives as a country,this I feel will be replicated in America should Trump be elected,PaulG2 and I may part company on that thought,I don't know ? You see, and this is an important point for many,I have no interest in a Political and Economic Communion with a bunch of losers ,I don't believe we need them in that way,its for me a Trading Partner nothing more.I believe that after we leave, the German People may have some ideas regarding their relationship with Europe,I like the Germans,Proud,Industrious,Resourceful,I don't believe they can be happy propping up a cripple.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 7, 2016 6:45:53 GMT
CDS ......I think your last line was gratuitous
Paul ...... I think Global influence is important but using it correctly is even more important. Global influence correctly and judicially applied can prevent conflict. Incorrectly applied it can cause the same. Occasionally. Occasionally, conflict is unavoidable but it's root cause often comes from stupid mistakes by governments.
I was thinking of two conflicts, 1) the Falklands war and 2) the first Gulf war
The Falklands campaign was necessary for primarily one fundamental right, to live independently under the rule of the government you have chosen. The reason the Argentine invasion happened was because of decades of Whitehall blundering sent the wrong message, making the Argentinians think there would be no reaction apart from bluster.
Correct use of global influence would have convinced Argentina to pull it's neck in, Galtieri would not have dared it if he thought there was going to be any thing more than bluster at the UN.
The first Gulf war was another such case. Saddam would never have risked it if he had believed that the Gulf states would have asked for and accepted aid from infidels.
again poor application of global power.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 7, 2016 6:57:48 GMT
Sorry John,point taken and I have removed it.
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Post by peterboat on Jun 7, 2016 8:37:38 GMT
All good posts the EU is done for its destroyed the economies of the southern countries beyond belief. Greece would have left 2 years ago except they were forced in to doing what the EU wanted, if we vote out the rest will follow. The EU paliment is scared that the gravy train is pulling out of the station and is never ever going to return and it will leave behind all those hopes and aspirations that national politicians have for a second income and pension [Kinnocks} Quick lets blow the whistle and wave the flag for it to go
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