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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 12:06:11 GMT
I have been following David Schweizer on the other channel for months now as he tries to sell Helvetia his 1982 Narrowboat.He started off at near £40000 with the boat on brokerage at Rugby Boats and has ended up on Apollo Duck at £32950 and at the last time of looking had some interest but still no sale. I hear all the usual suspects on the other channel blowing smoke up Davids rear end regarding how lovely his boat is and how its a wonderful bargain etc but in the end as anyone will tell you its the market that decides a boats value,nothing else.I respect anyones right to ask what they can but I saw Helvetia at £25000 to £30000 max and I don't think I am going to be very wide of the mark with that analysis.Its my opinion and I tell it to all young couples whom I meet contemplating a life afloat,"You will get a stunning boat for £35000 max any day of the week,especially with the cash available to do the deal on the day" I was reminded of this belief last week when a fellow boater was extolling the qualities of his fit out, sapelle wood, Hip Bath,Glazed kitchen Units etc,I tried to tell him its all a matter of taste,one mans paradise is anothers nightmare and in the end he could be surprised how little value it adds in a sale.I can see everyone reading what I have written and shaking their heads but can I ask,where do you see the second hand market for boats,are people asking too much, how much is too much,whats your maximum figure.I think Helvetia was too highly priced and thats caused by two factors, an unrealistic seller with an inflated view of his boats worth.
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Post by JohnV on May 30, 2016 12:10:18 GMT
I came to the conclusion long ago, that almost every owner has a vastly inflated idea of the value of his boat. Of course on the other hand sometimes you price it ridiculously high and some mug discerning person of taste, comes along and snaps it up
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 30, 2016 14:13:13 GMT
Personally I think he now has it priced correctly but the trouble is that because it has been on the market for so long, buyer psychology is going to be "It's been on sale for ages and nobody else has bought it so there must be something wrong with it".
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 14:42:40 GMT
Personally I think he now has it priced correctly but the trouble is that because it has been on the market for so long, buyer psychology is going to be "It's been on sale for ages and nobody else has bought it so there must be something wrong with it". The saga has played out on the other channel as well which won't help matters.Its a 35 year old boat so any buyer should be thinking resale value also.
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Post by Mr Stabby on May 30, 2016 15:04:49 GMT
I don't think the age would put me off, and it is a nice boat with a proven engine. Possibly the lack of a fixed double bed is putting purchasers off?
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 15:37:45 GMT
I don't think the age would put me off, and it is a nice boat with a proven engine. Possibly the lack of a fixed double bed is putting purchasers off? What about peoples comments regarding the market though and regarding prices. I wasn't attempting a critique of Helvetia other than to point out how I saw her price wise.It is indeed a well kept boat but appealing to which market?
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Post by peterboat on May 30, 2016 15:46:13 GMT
As soon as I saw 1500 BMC I thought save the world and scrap It!! Bur I agree with you it aint my cup of tea and I see 28K in ittops allows you to put a proper engine in it
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Post by naughtyfox on May 30, 2016 15:46:49 GMT
We met David by chance last June and they struck us as a nice couple and I don't think they would try to rip anyone off. We didn't look at their boat with an eye to summing up its value, and only have a very vague idea how to do that - no - actually we're quite good at guesstimating. 40,000 Pounds is nothing to many people. I think this just shows that the British are a bunch of skinflints. Arabs bathe in 50 Pound notes, our glorious Prime Minister David Cameron burns paper money in front of the homeless (when he's not piggy-fiddling). But Arabs are only interested in driving fast and flashy cars round Mayfair in the hope of getting a shag (why else?).
I'd like to see David hold out and someone come along and pay him the original asking price and yah boo sucks to the Vultures.
(as far as our boat goes, I think we paid a fair price - in fact the seller reduced it by a couple of thousand just for us but we insisted on sticking to the original price as he and his wife are nice people. It's only money, you can't take it with you when you snuff it.)
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Post by naughtyfox on May 30, 2016 15:53:34 GMT
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 16:18:11 GMT
We met David by chance last June and they struck us as a nice couple and I don't think they would try to rip anyone off. We didn't look at their boat with an eye to summing up its value, and only have a very vague idea how to do that - no - actually we're quite good at guesstimating. 40,000 Pounds is nothing to many people. I think this just shows that the British are a bunch of skinflints. Arabs bathe in 50 Pound notes, our glorious Prime Minister David Cameron burns paper money in front of the homeless (when he's not piggy-fiddling). But Arabs are only interested in driving fast and flashy cars round Mayfair in the hope of getting a shag (why else?). I'd like to see David hold out and someone come along and pay him the original asking price and yah boo sucks to the Vultures. (as far as our boat goes, I think we paid a fair price - in fact the seller reduced it by a couple of thousand just for us but we insisted on sticking to the original price as he and his wife are nice people. It's only money, you can't take it with you when you snuff it.) I don't think anyone has attacked Davids character or indeed suggested he was a rip off merchant.as for skinflints you could maybe substitute the word "realists"
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Post by PaulG2 on May 30, 2016 16:44:36 GMT
I don't think the age would put me off, and it is a nice boat with a proven engine. Possibly the lack of a fixed double bed is putting purchasers off? What about peoples comments regarding the market though and regarding prices. I wasn't attempting a critique of Helvetia other than to point out how I saw her price wise.It is indeed a well kept boat but appealing to which market?The "which market" part probably has a lot to do with it. From the Apollo Duck ad: "Helvetia is a well presented boat and comes with a full inventory of equipment and spares, plus a comprehensive owner’s manual which gives details of where everything is and how it all works. She has been lovingly owned by us for nearly twenty years and we shall be sad to see her go, but hope that she will continue to give new owners a much loved family holiday boat." Helvetia looks to be a very nice boat, and Dave S. apppears to have been fanatic about taking care of the boat, but it is just a holiday boat and that probably limits the market. It seems that things like a woodstove and batteries and inverters and so on are not there, and those are things most boat buyers want, aren't they? Maybe the boat has some of that stuff, if so it should be mentioned in the ad. 12V electric could be particularly problematic if it is not installed already. One would need to disassemble a lot of the interior to do a proper 12v wiring job. One other thing is the windows. For some reason those windows just look cheesy, cheap, to me. Are they even double glazed? When comparing the price of Helvetia to more typically outfitted live-a-boards, or any self-sufficient boat for that matter, you have to add a lot to the sales price. for example: £1,500 - a good set of Trojans, installed w/ wiring £5,000 - Victron Quatro or Phoenix 3000/120 installed along with all controls and related electronics £4,000 - a £1,500 - £2,000 woodstove w/ back burner installed w/ related interior remodeling and plumbing £1,000 - install 12V system - lights, receptacles, etc. ________ £11,500 right there if someone wants to make it a livaboard, or indeed an off-grid boat of any kind. From the looks of things, that boat has to be plugged in to shore power if you want anything to work, and that fact alone greatly limits its appeal, and its value. Edited to add - I have no idea what this boat should sell for, I'm just commenting on perhaps why it hasn't sold so far.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 16:58:04 GMT
What about peoples comments regarding the market though and regarding prices. I wasn't attempting a critique of Helvetia other than to point out how I saw her price wise.It is indeed a well kept boat but appealing to which market?The "which market" part probably has a lot to do with it. From the Apollo Duck ad: "Helvetia is a well presented boat and comes with a full inventory of equipment and spares, plus a comprehensive owner’s manual which gives details of where everything is and how it all works. She has been lovingly owned by us for nearly twenty years and we shall be sad to see her go, but hope that she will continue to give new owners a much loved family holiday boat." Helvetia looks to be a very nice boat, and Dave S. apppears to have been fanatic about taking care of the boat, but it is just a holiday boat and that probably limits the market. It seems that things like a woodstove and batteries and inverters and so on are not there, and those are things most boat buyers want, aren't they? Maybe the boat has some of that stuff, if so it should be mentioned in the ad. 12V electric could be particularly problematic if it is not installed already. One would need to disassemble a lot of the interior to do a proper 12v wiring job. One other thing is the windows. For some reason those windows just look cheesy, cheap, to me. Are they even double glazed? When comparing the price of Helvetia to more typically outfitted live-a-boards, or any self-sufficient boat for that matter, you have to add a lot to the sales price. for example: £1,500 - a good set of Trojans, installed w/ wiring £5,000 - Victron Quatro or Phoenix 3000/120 installed along with all controls and related electronics £4,000 - a £1,500 - £2,000 woodstove w/ back burner installed w/ related interior remodeling and plumbing £1,000 - install 12V system - lights, receptacles, etc. ________ £11,500 right there if someone wants to make it a livaboard, or indeed an off-grid boat of any kind. From the looks of things, that boat has to be plugged in to shore power if you want anything to work, and that fact alone greatly limits its appeal, and its value. Edited to add - I have no idea what this boat should sell for, I'm just commenting on perhaps why it hasn't sold so far. You have summed up the situation exactly and having done all the work you list on various boats I have owned,I can honestly say your estimates err to the Conservative.Another issue is the other 16 years which lay outside the sellers ownership,I would want to learn more about that also.
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Post by peterboat on May 30, 2016 17:00:43 GMT
What about peoples comments regarding the market though and regarding prices. I wasn't attempting a critique of Helvetia other than to point out how I saw her price wise.It is indeed a well kept boat but appealing to which market?The "which market" part probably has a lot to do with it. From the Apollo Duck ad: "Helvetia is a well presented boat and comes with a full inventory of equipment and spares, plus a comprehensive owner’s manual which gives details of where everything is and how it all works. She has been lovingly owned by us for nearly twenty years and we shall be sad to see her go, but hope that she will continue to give new owners a much loved family holiday boat." Helvetia looks to be a very nice boat, and Dave S. apppears to have been fanatic about taking care of the boat, but it is just a holiday boat and that probably limits the market. It seems that things like a woodstove and batteries and inverters and so on are not there, and those are things most boat buyers want, aren't they? Maybe the boat has some of that stuff, if so it should be mentioned in the ad. 12V electric could be particularly problematic if it is not installed already. One would need to disassemble a lot of the interior to do a proper 12v wiring job. One other thing is the windows. For some reason those windows just look cheesy, cheap, to me. Are they even double glazed? When comparing the price of Helvetia to more typically outfitted live-a-boards, or any self-sufficient boat for that matter, you have to add a lot to the sales price. for example: £1,500 - a good set of Trojans, installed w/ wiring £5,000 - Victron Quatro or Phoenix 3000/120 installed along with all controls and related electronics £4,000 - a £1,500 - £2,000 woodstove w/ back burner installed w/ related interior remodeling and plumbing £1,000 - install 12V system - lights, receptacles, etc. ________ £11,500 right there if someone wants to make it a livaboard, or indeed an off-grid boat of any kind. From the looks of things, that boat has to be plugged in to shore power if you want anything to work, and that fact alone greatly limits its appeal, and its value. Edited to add - I have no idea what this boat should sell for, I'm just commenting on perhaps why it hasn't sold so far. Paul things arnt that expensive a full set of proper tractions are only 600 squids including couplers, tails and watering system why waste money on inferior Trojans? A 3 kilowatt inverter like mine which is 5 years old 450 squids A boatman stove installed 8-900 squids It will have the 12 volt system already they always do So you would be looking at installing a 240 volt ring in it with galvanic isolator cost really depends on how much work needed I did all this on my old narrowboat not hard work at all
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Post by PaulG2 on May 30, 2016 17:33:23 GMT
Paul things arnt that expensive a full set of proper tractions are only 600 squids including couplers, tails and watering system why waste money on inferior Trojans? A 3 kilowatt inverter like mine which is 5 years old 450 squids A boatman stove installed 8-900 squids It will have the 12 volt system already they always do So you would be looking at installing a 240 volt ring in it with galvanic isolator cost really depends on how much work needed I did all this on my old narrowboat not hard work at all Peter, you have "been there and done that" so I'm certainly in no position to disagree with you. You do have to consider though that not everyone is as talented as you, nor as cheap. Many people would opt to have new kit professionally installed. I spent many years wiring homes and light commercial, and could do it in my sleep, but I'd hire a marine electrician to wire my boat, if need be. CDS thinks from experience that my estimates are conservative, so we have a high and a low and what it would cost someone depends on what they want and how they go about it. Just looking at our little conversation here, we're both guessing at what the boat does and does not have electrical wise. All things considered, it seems Dave should specify in his ad exactly what kind of electrical systems he has. That kind of information is important to people who are doing comparison shopping on the internet.
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Post by Deleted on May 30, 2016 18:18:13 GMT
The "which market" part probably has a lot to do with it. From the Apollo Duck ad: "Helvetia is a well presented boat and comes with a full inventory of equipment and spares, plus a comprehensive owner’s manual which gives details of where everything is and how it all works. She has been lovingly owned by us for nearly twenty years and we shall be sad to see her go, but hope that she will continue to give new owners a much loved family holiday boat." Helvetia looks to be a very nice boat, and Dave S. apppears to have been fanatic about taking care of the boat, but it is just a holiday boat and that probably limits the market. It seems that things like a woodstove and batteries and inverters and so on are not there, and those are things most boat buyers want, aren't they? Maybe the boat has some of that stuff, if so it should be mentioned in the ad. 12V electric could be particularly problematic if it is not installed already. One would need to disassemble a lot of the interior to do a proper 12v wiring job. One other thing is the windows. For some reason those windows just look cheesy, cheap, to me. Are they even double glazed? When comparing the price of Helvetia to more typically outfitted live-a-boards, or any self-sufficient boat for that matter, you have to add a lot to the sales price. for example: £1,500 - a good set of Trojans, installed w/ wiring £5,000 - Victron Quatro or Phoenix 3000/120 installed along with all controls and related electronics £4,000 - a £1,500 - £2,000 woodstove w/ back burner installed w/ related interior remodeling and plumbing £1,000 - install 12V system - lights, receptacles, etc. ________ £11,500 right there if someone wants to make it a livaboard, or indeed an off-grid boat of any kind. From the looks of things, that boat has to be plugged in to shore power if you want anything to work, and that fact alone greatly limits its appeal, and its value. Edited to add - I have no idea what this boat should sell for, I'm just commenting on perhaps why it hasn't sold so far. Paul things arnt that expensive a full set of proper tractions are only 600 squids including couplers, tails and watering system why waste money on inferior Trojans? A 3 kilowatt inverter like mine which is 5 years old 450 squids A boatman stove installed 8-900 squids It will have the 12 volt system already they always do So you would be looking at installing a 240 volt ring in it with galvanic isolator cost really depends on how much work needed I did all this on my old narrowboat not hard work at all Peter everything can always be done cheaper but the fact remains a)you did your own installation so saved significantly. b) A Victron Inverter Charger is easily £5000 fitted and a Morso Squirrel easily £1000 just to buy with associated sundry items.An 8x4 sheet of oak faced ply is £28. Paul is spot on with his costings,as you say it can always be done cheaper but these older boats can be a complete money pit.
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