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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 6:12:50 GMT
I had a little cruise around the Olympic park yesterday (the open bit not the locks) and saw a District Enforcement sign.
No mooring allowed at all £150 fine if you stop.
This got me wondering. I have a relevant consent ("canals and rivers license") so would expect that to mean I was allowed to moor in the course of navigation.
Is there a particular reason I am not allowed to do this? Maybe its not CRT water so my license does not apply or maybe I am actually allowed to moor despite signage telling me not to.
Its been quite a while since the Olympics so I can't see venue security could be a valid argument.
If mooring has simply been banned permanently that seems a bit concerning perhaps it might happen elsewhere if there is a mechanism allowing it.
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Post by patty on Feb 15, 2019 7:37:38 GMT
Send a letter raise those questions... Perhaps if its highlighted...eg maybe letters to local papers maybe they'll clarify or......ignore
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 7:43:39 GMT
Having done a bit of research it seems that the waterways may not actually belong to CRT but the London Legacy Development Corporation. However use of the waterway is permitted.
Seems a bit wrong to provide a waterway in a park yet ban mooring completely.
They even say they will tow the boat away if its left, plus £150 fine.
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Post by kris on Feb 15, 2019 8:39:24 GMT
Having done a bit of research it seems that the waterways may not actually belong to CRT but the London Legacy Development Corporation. However use of the waterway is permitted. Seems a bit wrong to provide a waterway in a park yet ban mooring completely. They even say they will tow the boat away if its left, plus £150 fine. Are canal and river trust mentioned on the signs.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 8:48:19 GMT
I would have thought that boating should be encouraged, after all it's what stops the canals from reverting to dead cat ditches at the end of the day. Write to your MP, see if that helps.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 9:30:32 GMT
Having done a bit of research it seems that the waterways may not actually belong to CRT but the London Legacy Development Corporation. However use of the waterway is permitted. Seems a bit wrong to provide a waterway in a park yet ban mooring completely. They even say they will tow the boat away if its left, plus £150 fine. Are canal and river trust mentioned on the signs. I think so but not sure. It appears that CRT are managing the waterway but do not own it therefore the right to moor which you get with a "license" does not apply.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 9:34:48 GMT
Are canal and river trust mentioned on the signs. I think so but not sure. It appears that CRT are managing the waterway but do not own it therefore the right to moor which you get with a "license" does not apply. Well, the CRT can impose should have agreed contract conditions in line with their "own" conditions, that's perfectly fair and in line with "transparency".
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Post by kris on Feb 15, 2019 9:37:31 GMT
Are canal and river trust mentioned on the signs. I think so but not sure. It appears that CRT are managing the waterway but do not own it therefore the right to moor which you get with a "license" does not apply. I doubt it's legal, if you don't read the signs then you have not entered into any contract with district enforcement.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 9:41:05 GMT
I find this whole signage thing very bizarre. If you can't read presumably they do not apply.
Very weird. Having looked it up online it seems if you moor then CRT will the boat towed by DE.
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Post by NigelMoore on Feb 15, 2019 14:22:34 GMT
I had a little cruise around the Olympic park yesterday (the open bit not the locks) and saw a District Enforcement sign. No mooring allowed at all £150 fine if you stop. This got me wondering. I have a relevant consent ("canals and rivers license") so would expect that to mean I was allowed to moor in the course of navigation. Is there a particular reason I am not allowed to do this? Maybe its not CRT water so my license does not apply or maybe I am actually allowed to moor despite signage telling me not to. Its been quite a while since the Olympics so I can't see venue security could be a valid argument. If mooring has simply been banned permanently that seems a bit concerning perhaps it might happen elsewhere if there is a mechanism allowing it. The Bow Back Rivers and old river Lea are all public navigable rivers – but as I have noted under other topics, the PRN gives no right to moor to privately owned banks. The CaRT website says the rivers were “ handed over to the London Legacy Development Corporation in 2012”, though “ From summer 2016 we once again took over the day-to-day care of these rivers”. I doubt that CaRT have statutory jurisdiction over these parts (but have not looked into that), so your relevant consent would be immaterial – and even if it did have jurisdiction, the consent would give no moorings rights as on the canals. The PRN does not give a licence to boaters to moor in contravention of private riparian rights. So if operating only as a contractor for the Stadium Island owners, then they would be entitled to do as they say on their website – “ There are signs along the water’s edge advising your [sic] where to stop and moor. If you ignore the signs and moor in the Park, and do not move on, as a last resort The Trust will need to move your boat a short distance to Bow Free Wharf, using our contractors District Enforcement Ltd where you’ll be easily able to collect it.” That much is fair enough I believe; if DE take it further with “fines” etc, that would seem to exceed their proper remit. The issue of “stopping” as distinct from mooring to the bank is perhaps a separate question. canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/queen-elizabeth-olympic-park-waterways
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2019 15:44:39 GMT
One of the signs I do find very odd is the one on crt gated moorings which says "it is important that you read this sign in full....Anyone mooring here must pay £150. How do you read the sign smallprint in full without mooring up?
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Post by metanoia on Feb 15, 2019 22:01:56 GMT
I had a little cruise around the Olympic park yesterday (the open bit not the locks) and saw a District Enforcement sign. No mooring allowed at all £150 fine if you stop. This got me wondering. I have a relevant consent ("canals and rivers license") so would expect that to mean I was allowed to moor in the course of navigation. Is there a particular reason I am not allowed to do this? Maybe its not CRT water so my license does not apply or maybe I am actually allowed to moor despite signage telling me not to. Its been quite a while since the Olympics so I can't see venue security could be a valid argument. If mooring has simply been banned permanently that seems a bit concerning perhaps it might happen elsewhere if there is a mechanism allowing it. Bit worrying, to say the least. Last time I was that way was 2008 when it was all boarded up and a bit scary then .........…. Let us know x
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Post by thebfg on Feb 15, 2019 22:11:33 GMT
I had a little cruise around the Olympic park yesterday (the open bit not the locks) and saw a District Enforcement sign. No mooring allowed at all £150 fine if you stop. This got me wondering. I have a relevant consent ("canals and rivers license") so would expect that to mean I was allowed to moor in the course of navigation. Is there a particular reason I am not allowed to do this? Maybe its not CRT water so my license does not apply or maybe I am actually allowed to moor despite signage telling me not to. Its been quite a while since the Olympics so I can't see venue security could be a valid argument. If mooring has simply been banned permanently that seems a bit concerning perhaps it might happen elsewhere if there is a mechanism allowing it. The Bow Back Rivers and old river Lea are all public navigable rivers – but as I have noted under other topics, the PRN gives no right to moor to privately owned banks. The CaRT website says the rivers were “ handed over to the London Legacy Development Corporation in 2012”, though “ From summer 2016 we once again took over the day-to-day care of these rivers”. I doubt that CaRT have statutory jurisdiction over these parts (but have not looked into that), so your relevant consent would be immaterial – and even if it did have jurisdiction, the consent would give no moorings rights as on the canals. The PRN does not give a licence to boaters to moor in contravention of private riparian rights. So if operating only as a contractor for the Stadium Island owners, then they would be entitled to do as they say on their website – “ There are signs along the water’s edge advising your [sic] where to stop and moor. If you ignore the signs and moor in the Park, and do not move on, as a last resort The Trust will need to move your boat a short distance to Bow Free Wharf, using our contractors District Enforcement Ltd where you’ll be easily able to collect it.” That much is fair enough I believe; if DE take it further with “fines” etc, that would seem to exceed their proper remit. The issue of “stopping” as distinct from mooring to the bank is perhaps a separate question. canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/queen-elizabeth-olympic-park-waterways I presume they will charge. they have to make money and fines. well charges are their only source of income. would they be allowed to collect costs that they had to tow the boat and storage charges?
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Post by NigelMoore on Feb 15, 2019 22:28:11 GMT
I presume they will charge. they have to make money and fines. well charges are their only source of income. would they be allowed to collect costs that they had to tow the boat and storage charges? In my view? No. Boats have a right to be on those sections of river - unless the PRN has been revoked by Parliament - and the most a riparian owner can do is whatever minimum is needed to abate any nuisance arising from unauthorised attachment to their land. That could involve something like the action described on CaRT's website linked to, where a boat is towed to the nearest safe place where it may be legitimately moored. They could lodge a small claims action to pursue costs of doing so perhaps, but involving pirates such as DE (going on what has been said about them) to ramp up the sort of charges bruited should receive short shrift from a responsible court.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 15, 2019 22:45:09 GMT
The Bow Back Rivers and old river Lea are all public navigable rivers – but as I have noted under other topics, the PRN gives no right to moor to privately owned banks. The CaRT website says the rivers were “ handed over to the London Legacy Development Corporation in 2012”, though “ From summer 2016 we once again took over the day-to-day care of these rivers”. I doubt that CaRT have statutory jurisdiction over these parts (but have not looked into that), so your relevant consent would be immaterial – and even if it did have jurisdiction, the consent would give no moorings rights as on the canals. The PRN does not give a licence to boaters to moor in contravention of private riparian rights. So if operating only as a contractor for the Stadium Island owners, then they would be entitled to do as they say on their website – “ There are signs along the water’s edge advising your [sic] where to stop and moor. If you ignore the signs and moor in the Park, and do not move on, as a last resort The Trust will need to move your boat a short distance to Bow Free Wharf, using our contractors District Enforcement Ltd where you’ll be easily able to collect it.” That much is fair enough I believe; if DE take it further with “fines” etc, that would seem to exceed their proper remit. The issue of “stopping” as distinct from mooring to the bank is perhaps a separate question. canalrivertrust.org.uk/about-us/where-we-work/london-and-south-east/queen-elizabeth-olympic-park-waterways I presume they will charge. they have to make money and fines. well charges are their only source of income. would they be allowed to collect costs that they had to tow the boat and storage charges? In those circumstances I would think C&RT would probably be left with little choice other than claiming to be moving the boat in question under Section 8(5) of the 1983 BW Act which makes no provision for charges and states : (5) Notwithstanding the provisions of this section the Board may at any time move without notice a relevant craft it be an obstruction or a source of danger. The term 'obstruction' in subsection 8(5) would probably be applied in much the same manner as the Police can label any motor vehicle parked on any public highway as an 'obstruction'.
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