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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 23, 2019 10:23:02 GMT
There's no need to use two tides with another tide in between on the anchor somewhere round Trent End. You can get up the Trent from Goole on the Ebb of one tide and the first of the flood of the next tide on the same day. Which Saturday and Sunday are those times you've quoted for ? They're not right for this weekend (23rd & 24th) or next weekend (30th & 31st). You will also need to make sure you clear Ocean Lock before Free Tide Time finishes, which means no later than an hour and a half after the predicted time of local (ie. Goole) HW, which not the same time as Hull HW. If you don't, then ABP will sting you for £34.20 for a pen into the river. Tony - the times I have are for 30th and 31st: Goole Saturday, 30 Mar 2019 GMT ▲ 03:20 3.2m ▼ 09:20 0.8m ▲ 14:50 3.3m ▼ 21:40 0.8m (2.6m) 53°042'.0N 000°052'.0W Blacktoft Sunday, 31 Mar 2019 BST ▲ 05:00 3.5m ▼ 10:40 0.6m ▲ 17:10 3.7m ▼ 23:10 0.5m ▲ 00:50 0.8m ▼ 01:00 0.8m (3.2m) 53°042'.0N 000°043'.0W Are these markedly wrong? Those tide times for Goole HW on Sat 30 Mar are 42 minutes late for the morning tide and 20 minutes early for the afternoon tide compared to what I've got, which are from the UKHO, the same source as ABP's Tide Books, but if you want to spend Saturday (30th) night on the anchor round the back of Whitton Island near Weighton Lock, then the time you leave Goole relative to HW isn't crucial to 20 minutes or so, except for the fact that the later you are on the Ebb, the easier it will be to see the channel in. If I was doing this trip from Goole to Torksey over the weekend of Sat 30th and Sun 31st, then I wouldn't budge from Goole until about an hour of the Ebb has run down on the Sunday morning, ie. around 0600 hrs. Goole HW on Sun 31 March is 0455 hrs (BST), so Free Tide Time ends at 0625 hrs. A steady run downriver with the Ebb will see you round Apex Light and along the Half-tide wall to just over halfway between South Trent and Adlingfleet Lights in a bit under 2 hours, where you can drop the hook and wait for Flood, which on the piddling little tides predicted for that weekend will probably take anything up to an hour and a half after predicted (local) LW before it starts 'running up'. Those Blacktoft LW times aren't much use for working out the time of Flood round Trent End because LW is not the same time, or the same thing, as 'Flood', . . ie. there is little if any drop in river level for the last hour to hour and a half of the Ebb on the very small Neap tides predicted for the weekend of 30 and 31 March. Best estimate of the time of (Neap) Flood there is had by deducting 3.75 hours from the predicted time of the next HW at Hull, which for Sunday 31 March is 1605 hrs (BST), making Flood around 1220 hrs, and leaving you with a good 6 hours of daylight for the 36 miles from there to Torksey.
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Post by redfox226 on Mar 23, 2019 11:14:21 GMT
Tony - the times I have are for 30th and 31st: Goole Saturday, 30 Mar 2019 GMT ▲ 03:20 3.2m ▼ 09:20 0.8m ▲ 14:50 3.3m ▼ 21:40 0.8m (2.6m) 53°042'.0N 000°052'.0W Blacktoft Sunday, 31 Mar 2019 BST ▲ 05:00 3.5m ▼ 10:40 0.6m ▲ 17:10 3.7m ▼ 23:10 0.5m ▲ 00:50 0.8m ▼ 01:00 0.8m (3.2m) 53°042'.0N 000°043'.0W Are these markedly wrong? Those tide times for Goole HW on Sat 30 Mar are 42 minutes late for the morning tide and 20 minutes early for the afternoon tide compared to what I've got, which are from the UKHO, the same source as ABP's Tide Books, but if you want to spend Saturday (30th) night on the anchor round the back of Whitton Island near Weighton Lock, then the time you leave Goole relative to HW isn't crucial to 20 minutes or so, except for the fact that the later you are on the Ebb, the easier it will be to see the channel in. If I was doing this trip from Goole to Torksey over the weekend of Sat 30th and Sun 31st, then I wouldn't budge from Goole until about an hour of the Ebb has run down on the Sunday morning, ie. around 0600 hrs. Goole HW on Sun 31 March is 0455 hrs (BST), so Free Tide Time ends at 0625 hrs. A steady run downriver with the Ebb will see you round Apex Light and along the Half-tide wall to just over halfway between South Trent and Adlingfleet Lights in a bit under 2 hours, where you can drop the hook and wait for Flood, which on the piddling little tides predicted for that weekend will probably take anything up to an hour and a half after predicted (local) LW before it starts 'running up'. Those Blacktoft LW times aren't much use for working out the time of Flood round Trent End because LW is not the same time, or the same thing, as 'Flood', . . ie. there is little if any drop in river level for the last hour to hour and a half of the Ebb on the very small Neap tides predicted for the weekend of 30 and 31 March. Best estimate of the time of (Neap) Flood there is had by deducting 3.75 hours from the predicted time of the next HW at Hull, which for Sunday 31 March is 1605 hrs (BST), making Flood around 1220 hrs, and leaving you with a good 6 hours of daylight for the 36 miles from there to Torksey. Thanks Tony - the tide times come from Imray Tides Planner, which is excellent for coastal tides, but less so for inland. As usual your advice is well taken, but I rather fancy a night on the hook which will enable me to snug everything down and ensure all is shipshape for the trip. As an East Coast sailor, I'm used to dropping the hook and doing a bit of mudlarking! Thanks again.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 26, 2019 18:22:22 GMT
Latest re. Wykewell End Lift Bridge at Thorne :
The C&RT engineers with overall responsibility for fixing the bridge have, for some reason known only to themselves, decided that the new hanger bars/links should not be manufactured to the original specifications and drawings, and are at present working on, ie. vacillating over, a new design and specification for them.
The net result of all this farting about is that work on actually making the new parts cannot/will not begin before Monday or Tuesday of next week, at the very earliest.
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Post by JohnV on Mar 26, 2019 18:28:45 GMT
One comment I would make about that Tony, If I was looking to repair something that had failed after such a short time ..... I would be looking to modify that part to improve its reliability
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 18:48:16 GMT
Plus there seems from the photos to have been a previous failure and replacement of the other link bar so redesigning the whole thing makes sense and replace both.
I wonder it it is related to the changes in traffic over the years leading to more vibration or other unexpected loads.
I know they are for when the bridge deck is raised and they are not actually doing anything when bridge is down but they could still suffer from some stresses related to traffic volume and vehicle weight.
In theory.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:01:58 GMT
Plus there seems from the photos to have been a previous failure and replacement of the other link bar so redesigning the whole thing makes sense and replace both. I wonder it it is related to the changes in traffic over the years leading to more vibration or other unexpected loads. I know they are for when the bridge deck is raised and they are not actually doing anything when bridge is down but they could still suffer from some stresses related to traffic volume and vehicle weight. In theory. As far as i am aware those hangers are only under load when the bridge is raised. They always seemed to come down with a pretty resounding thud so my guess is the load is well dissapated across the deck, relieving the hangers of any stress.
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Post by naughtyfox on Mar 26, 2019 19:27:02 GMT
How the rest of the world must be laughing when the Brits can't make a bridge that works, any more. Don the Hi-Viz vests and hard hats, we could spin this one out for months, guaranteed income. Why rush and then be left facing redundancy?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:43:24 GMT
Plus there seems from the photos to have been a previous failure and replacement of the other link bar so redesigning the whole thing makes sense and replace both. I wonder it it is related to the changes in traffic over the years leading to more vibration or other unexpected loads. I know they are for when the bridge deck is raised and they are not actually doing anything when bridge is down but they could still suffer from some stresses related to traffic volume and vehicle weight. In theory. As far as i am aware those hangers are only under load when the bridge is raised. They always seemed to come down with a pretty resounding thud so my guess is the load is well dissapated across the deck, relieving the hangers of any stress. It would be interesting to know the exact failure. If its corrosion then perhaps there was some sort of moisture trap which needs eliminating. Or the use of a weld in an inappropriate place leading to stress failure.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:46:44 GMT
As far as i am aware those hangers are only under load when the bridge is raised. They always seemed to come down with a pretty resounding thud so my guess is the load is well dissapated across the deck, relieving the hangers of any stress. It would be interesting to know the exact failure. If its corrosion then perhaps there was some sort of moisture trap which needs eliminating. Or the use of a weld in an inappropriate place leading to stress failure. I doubt we will ever know, but there is a movable joint/pivot at either end of each bar that must wear with each lift. My money would be on one of them.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:51:30 GMT
Or it could be an alignment problem with the hinged bit causing side loads on the link bars. Redesign the part which failed rather then addressing the actual problem.
Like you say we will probably never know.
Is it up to CRT to spend on this or is it a Highways job?
Scottish canals had a few problems with lift bridges that's why I wondered about traffic volume maybe the whole design of the bridge needs to be changed to accommodate modern usage patterns.
Or moderate the traffic somehow.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:55:11 GMT
Or it could be an alignment problem with the hinged bit causing side loads on the link bars. Redesign the part which failed rather then addressing the actual problem. Like you say we will probably never know. Is it up to CRT to spend on this or is it a Highways job? <iframe width="17.200000000000045" height="4.97999999999999" style="position: absolute; width: 17.200000000000045px; height: 4.97999999999999px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none;left: 15px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_85364025" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="17.200000000000045" height="4.97999999999999" style="position: absolute; width: 17.2px; height: 4.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 806px; top: -5px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_40092923" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="17.200000000000045" height="4.97999999999999" style="position: absolute; width: 17.2px; height: 4.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 15px; top: 188px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_32477354" scrolling="no"></iframe> <iframe width="17.200000000000045" height="4.97999999999999" style="position: absolute; width: 17.2px; height: 4.98px; z-index: -9999; border-style: none; left: 806px; top: 188px;" id="MoatPxIOPT0_88033304" scrolling="no"></iframe> if they break down its CRT you ring and who come out. So my guess would be CRT.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 19:59:47 GMT
Scottish canals had a few problems with lift bridges that's why I wondered about traffic volume maybe the whole design of the bridge needs to be changed to accommodate modern usage patterns. Or moderate the traffic somehow. But surely basic engineering priniples dictate that a flat decked bridge sat on a flat surface means the bars are released from any stresses caused by weight being applied to the roadway.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 20:35:47 GMT
It must be flexible to an extent. Its not completely rigid or it would be too heavy. Vibration caused by passing traffic can do odd things like when people have speed humps outside their houses and it damages the building foundations.
It seems possible that the link bars referred to are actually still under tension when the deck is fully lowered in order to stop them flapping around. If that was the case then vehicle movements would cause a changing force to be applied to the connecting points. I don't know but its possible that the modern tendency for people to have things delivered by vans has increased the number of heavier vehicle movements over the last decade or so.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2019 21:14:48 GMT
It must be flexible to an extent. Its not completely rigid or it would be too heavy. Vibration caused by passing traffic can do odd things like when people have speed humps outside their houses and it damages the building foundations. It seems possible that the link bars referred to are actually still under tension when the deck is fully lowered in order to stop them flapping around. If that was the case then vehicle movements would cause a changing force to be applied to the connecting points. I don't know but its possible that the modern tendency for people to have things delivered by vans has increased the number of heavier vehicle movements over the last decade or so. If that was the issue the one at Barnby Dun would have gone the same way years ago.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 26, 2019 21:44:26 GMT
One comment I would make about that Tony, If I was looking to repair something that had failed after such a short time ..... I would be looking to modify that part to improve its reliability So would I, John, if the failure was in fact down to a design flaw, but from the time of the failure in the hanger bar it's already taken a week for this to dawn on them, and now they reckon they need another week to re-design a length of round bar with a bushed eye at each end of it. In my book that's world-class farting about !
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