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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 7:35:53 GMT
When we blacked our boat almost 3 years ago, we were told there were basically two types of blacking, 'comastic' and 'bitumous' - and that the two weren't compatible (ie. you can't paint comastic on top of bitumous, and vice versa). We looked at the last blacking details for our boat and in April 2009 'Premium Protection' bitumous blacking was used - Premium Protection is a name Rylard use, and still sold to this day. March 2014 seems to be the next blacking date, and the paperwork just says '2 coats of blacking' (no name/make). When we did ours, we were sold bitumous, this: I've read/heard this is no longer made, but of course, there may still be cans for sale in someone's stores. I asked Rylard a few days ago about Rytex and answer is: "Unfortunately, we don't offer anything in the Rylard Range that will overcoat Standard Black, this product has to be fully removed prior to painting. Rytex is not compatible with Standard Black." I thought Rylard's Rytex was a bitumous blacking. Any thoughts, and any ideas what blacking paint we should use this Summer? Thought I'd ask here first before chasing up Rylard / Spencer Coatings / the people who sold us the 'Standard Black'.
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Post by peterboat on Apr 6, 2019 9:04:00 GMT
You can use Keelblack to overcoat the other stuff, both John and I have used it, I am very happy with the results, and I have docked and recoated it, the previous keelblack was in good condition so I have no complaints Ross
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 9:41:08 GMT
You can use Keelblack to overcoat the other stuff, both John and I have used it, I am very happy with the results, and I have docked and recoated it, the previous keelblack was in good condition so I have no complaints Ross Keelblack's site says: "We have yet to find any bitumineous blacking that KEELBLACK will not stick to." What I don't understand is: - is the Standard Black coal tar that we used last time a 'bitumous' / 'bitumenous' paint, and if it is, why won't Rylard's bitumen paints go over it? Yeah, could look at Keelblack. Why is everything is the boating world so conflicted?
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Post by JohnV on Apr 6, 2019 9:59:01 GMT
old fashioned bitumastic used volatile solvents to thin it down. That is not environmentally friendly, it also is a "soft" surface that bleeds through most other paint types causing them to lose adhesion. Keelblack is a water based bitumastic paint. Mine was painted over two pack so not the same kind of test that is had on Jojoyce and I will tell you what I think of it in a couple of years time
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 10:11:48 GMT
I've sent an e-mail to Keelblack. Their net site about Delivery is not clear (is there a charge or not?). I'll send an e-mail to the people who sold us the Standard Black also, to see if they still have any cans for sale. And I've sent another e-mail to Axalta who seem to have taken over Spencer Coatings and Rylard, as their first reply was somewhat lacking in info.
"Mine was painted over two pack so not the same kind of test that is had on Jojoyce" - and Jojoyce's original blacking/paint was..... ??
In the worst case scenario we'll go to B&M and buy their cheapest gloss black paint and slap that all round!!
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Post by JohnV on Apr 6, 2019 10:36:33 GMT
I found Keelblack a helpful company to deal with.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 11:04:38 GMT
Keel black sounds a bit racist.
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Post by peterboat on Apr 6, 2019 11:17:41 GMT
I've sent an e-mail to Keelblack. Their net site about Delivery is not clear (is there a charge or not?). I'll send an e-mail to the people who sold us the Standard Black also, to see if they still have any cans for sale. And I've sent another e-mail to Axalta who seem to have taken over Spencer Coatings and Rylard, as their first reply was somewhat lacking in info. "Mine was painted over two pack so not the same kind of test that is had on Jojoyce" - and Jojoyce's original blacking/paint was..... ?? In the worst case scenario we'll go to B&M and buy their cheapest gloss black paint and slap that all round!! My boat was zingered so the keelblack was cosmetic my mate Johns boat was like yours standard blacking and his keelblack has survived alright at the last docking. We both dock at the same time and the last two times I have done both boats, spaying the keelblack on is very fast, and takes an hour per coat for both boats, I can get 3 coats on both boats in an afternoon, that leaves plenty of time for drying, painting gunnels etc etc. I sound like an advert for them, but it works for me so I say it like I see it
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 11:43:31 GMT
Well you see, this is where I'm confused. We were sold Standard Black as a 'normal bitumen' blacking but according to the boatpaint.co.uk netsite it's not - and we shouldn't have used it at all (?). When we have been able to see the bottom sides through clear water (rare!), it still seems stuck on though!
boatpaint.co.uk says: "Hull blackings fall into two distinctly different types: Bitumen based and Coal Tar based." (what is 'comastic', then?)
"Bituminous products are spirit based and can be applied over any existing coating type without issues - by owners and non-professional applicators. Coal Tar based products contain aggressive solvents that will dissolve the underlying coating if incompatible (i.e. not another Coal Tar product)."
"SHOULD NOT BE APPLIED OVER SURFACES PREVIOUSLY PAINTED BITUMEN BASED PRODUCTS"
I shall write to the people who sold us this Spencer Coatings Standard Black...!
And it will be interesting to see what the sides of our boat look like when it's hauled out of the water.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 6, 2019 11:52:41 GMT
What about using an oil based paint?
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 13:29:13 GMT
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 6, 2019 13:32:23 GMT
Just randomly found from t'Internet: Q. Blacking over vinyl tar I found out recently that coal tar products are being banned from January 2019 and my narrowboat was blacked with Rylards Vinyl Tar from new last year and I understand that this product is coal tar based. I've also heard that bituminous blacking doesn't adhere to vinyl tar, so I was wondering which blacking I can use when the time comes, and for touching up any scrapes? A. from Waterways World It seems that production of coal tar vinyl paints such as Comastic and Coflex has already stopped. Owners of boats with this type of paint on the hull have two conventional choices. One is to have the hull grit blasted and a two-pack epoxy applied. This is obviously expensive but it has the advantage that dry docking can be stretched from every two years to every five to seven years. If you plan to keep the boat for around fifteen years, you will probably recoup the cost and save yourself a lot of time and effort. The other is to apply a bituminous paint like Rytex or Intertuf 16 over the vinyl tar paint. My local dry dock operator tells me that his customers have had no problems with this provided that the existing paint is pressure jetted and rubbed down to provide a good key. The disadvantage of this option is that, should production of coal tar vinyl paints restart, it will not be possible to apply them over the bituminous paint. A third possibility is to use Keelblack which is a water-based bitumen paint that the makers say can be applied over any existing coating. This is a new product and I have no experience of how it performs. More information can be found at www.keelblack.co.uk.
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Post by greenman on Apr 7, 2019 9:37:40 GMT
I used SML Ballastic Black. SML state it can be put over other bitumen coatings:
"Ballastic Black Premium Hull Blacking is a waterproof, high build bitumen coating that is ideal for use below the waterline as a hull blacking on narrowboats, canal boats and for vessels on the inland waterways. Bitumen products such as Ballastic Black provide an extremely flexible coating it can be applied on to bare steel or over existing bitumen based coatings (like Intertuf 16, Comastic and Rylards Rytex)"
The only issue I found was it dries to a dark grey matt (doesn't bother me but I know some like black and shiny)
I did look at Keelblack but found more bad reviews than good. As it was my first go at blacking decided to avoid it
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Post by Jim on Apr 7, 2019 10:02:05 GMT
Booked into Hebden Bridge dry dock 29th April. Ordering Keelblack and Fertan next week. And a tercoo Rotoblaster for cleaning off any carp. As far as I can see, the keelblack has stayed on fine, except for scuffs and ice damage from icebreaking one day.
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Post by peterboat on Apr 7, 2019 10:09:48 GMT
Booked into Hebden Bridge dry dock 29th April. Ordering Keelblack and Fertan next week. And a Rotoblaster for cleaning off any carp. As far as I can see, the keelblack has stayed on fine, except for scuffs and ice damage from icebreaking one day. Yes Jim, thats because we followed the instructions on how to apply it! John my neighbour did the same and his has stayed on as well, I really do despair that people use the stuff and then drop the boat in the water a few hours later, and wonder why its gone wrong
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