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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 12:16:49 GMT
A few discussions around about whether it is more efficient than propellers but I have a suspicion that a properly laid out twin prop pedal driven canoe would win the tug of war . . . Tug of war between Hobie drive and prop-pedalled kayaks – Why are they going backwards? I've not investigate but I suspect a mirage drive is equally efficient in forward or reverse whereas a propeller driven canoe or kayak is going to be considerably worse in reverse than in forward because of the prop design. Weird to do it backwards I can't understand that at all.
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Post by NigelMoore on May 10, 2019 13:20:03 GMT
They did it both ways.
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Post by bodger on May 10, 2019 14:15:00 GMT
Having faced angry (all of them always seem to be looking for a fight) swans on many occasions over the past 60 years, in canoes, when swimming, when walking on the towpath and also when cruising on larger boats I consider them nasty badly behaved louts, who, without the queen's protection, would all have been eaten/exterminated decades ago. I hate the bloody things. People say how graceful they are - I just see an arrogant bullying strutting bit of fauna that always appears to be looking down its nose at me.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 14:53:25 GMT
They are a nuisance yes. It seems odd that a bird would have the intellect to know it is a protected species but it really seems like they are aware.
If they come begging for food by any of my boats I impolitely ask them to "go away". If they don't then I strike them roughly on the neck with an extra long handled wooden spoon kept aboard for this purpose.
This usually works.
Failing that its red hot mooring pins in their eyes.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2019 14:56:18 GMT
Oh yes. Sorry about that the music got on my tits too much to watch the whole video !!
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Post by thebfg on May 10, 2019 18:27:39 GMT
I would love one of them, i always have a chat with them at the boat show.
One the ones with outriggers and a sail for fishing in the solent.
Dreams.
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Post by NigelMoore on May 10, 2019 21:28:53 GMT
I would love one of them, i always have a chat with them at the boat show. One the ones with outriggers and a sail for fishing in the solent. Dreams. The trimaran-ish versions really are for the wealthy! Even second-hand. Most of the standard versions can be equipped with sail, though again, expensive for what is on offer. One of the Middle Level Bill petitioners is an avid canoe sailor, and is determined to help me rig up mine for sailing as well - though his ambitions are far beyond what I want to do. I did try out a silly little parasol style round plastic sail tied to a broomstick, for a boost downwind, but it was not terribly successful. At least for £14 it was not an expensive experiment - They do make electric drives tailored to the Hobies, to fit in place of the pedal fin assembly; perfect for tandems, but not something I will be bothering with. For the dory though, the electric drive is blissfully silent after 4hp two-strokes, and I have gone on a 3 hour river pub crawl with plenty of juice left in the battery.
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Post by JohnV on May 11, 2019 6:37:11 GMT
Reading this thread is (almost) inspiring me to do something more adventurous with my Minn Kota than just using it to trundle a few hundred feet from the Dog and Duck to the Marina Bar in the inflatable.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 7:18:18 GMT
Fitting motor and range testing tomorrow on the Thames. I've fitted a rc model watt meter which shows cumulative watt hours so will do tests over a 1km length of the Thames upstream and downstream using a etrex GPS to acquire speed data. Almost tempted to get my data logger out and get graphs or is that too anoraky. I think just cruising at various different speeds and checking the consumption then number crunching would find the most efficient speed. I suspect it will be around 3.5-4mph which is quite a pleasant speed to go at anyway
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 7:24:40 GMT
Reading this thread is (almost) inspiring me to do something more adventurous with my Minn Kota than just using it to trundle a few hundred feet from the Dog and Duck to the Marina Bar in the inflatable. If you want a nice project for a questionable Minn Kota how about strip it down and use the end of the housing to mount a small high power brushless motor in? Here's one I made earlier. Not tested that one yet as shaft is not long enough due to having been broken. An considering mounting it into a rudder of some sort. The motor I put in it is from memory a 6355 (63 x 55mm) rc plane motor with a kV of 200 (rpm per volt). Good for about 3hp at 36v prop speed 7000rpm so probably not very realistic without gearing. Torqeedo use a similar motor with a planetary gearbox. It was this motor hobbyking.com/en_us/kd-53-30-high-voltage-brushless-outrunner-190kv.html. it is in fact a 6364 not a 5330... Fitted inside the kota end casting comfortably. There were different sizes of kota motors so would need checking but it is one potential way to recycle a nackered trolling motor. Not sure how good itwill be but will play with it at some point. It could result in an excessively fast kayak which may prove a little discombobulating. With a big remote control plane prop on it it might be a bit of a giggle
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Post by bodger on May 11, 2019 14:21:51 GMT
fascinating. I have a defunct MK lower unit somewhere, might be worth a spin.
how did you make and fit the end plate? is there a seal on the shaft? I don't see any sign of a seal in the illustrations on the website.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 15:34:58 GMT
fascinating. I have a defunct MK lower unit somewhere, might be worth a spin. how did you make and fit the end plate? is there a seal on the shaft? I don't see any sign of a seal in the illustrations on the website. I ordered a aluminium ring the right size (that part of the housing has a little recess) from Lasermaster.co.uk. Outer diameter to slot into the recess and inner diameter for a suitable lip seal I think it was a 16x8 lip seal as the motor shaft is 8mm. You could reuse the existing end plate but for some reason I had lost that and its probably better just to use an ally ring anyway as the mounting holes will be needed and the front plate on MK motors is not just a flat disk. So the aluminium ring was 8mm thick, outer diameter in this case about 83mm and inner diameter 16mm for the seal. I then bolted the front of the motor (m3 threads on it) to that disc with shaft through the pressed in lip seal and stuck the arrangement into the recess in the front of the casting with PU sealant. Also sealed up the bolt holes. It would be worth pinning it from the outside edges of the casting. I thought maybe two holes drilled through and into edge of the aluminium disc then roll pins tapped in. That would reduce any chance of it rotating if the sikaflex is not strong enough to hold it. Prop will be held on by 8mm RC plane prop adapter. One thing to note is the motor will be more tolerant of moisture. On the normal brushed MK type if it gets a lot of water in there it will rapidly take out the brushes. A brushless motor won't have that problem but I think the bearings would suffer probably. Still worth having open top shaft and turn unit upside down after use to see if any water got in. That's the front view. I just bodged it really. The proof of the pudding will be once I get the shaft sorted out and use it in water. The concept works I reckon Red dots are the M3 machine screws holding motor in place. Blue lines are where I would like to insert roll pins or even better a couple of drilled and tapped holes with removeable screws. Roll pins would be a bit permanent. Thinking it through a bit more if there were lateral threaded holes it would be possible to fit it using a gasket rather than sealant but that would require very accurate tolerances on the holes and the whole thing would have to be pressed down while fitting the screws/bolts. Its tricky to bolt through in line with the motor as the holes used originally are part of the casting and through bolts would foul this particular motor so not an easy option. Annoyingly in this case I got them to make the inner hole 15.8mm as I thought the lip seal would be loose but it turned out to be too tight when I pressed it in. Should have known better really if its a 16mm seal its going to be a press fit into a 16mm hole ! I was a Bit Of A Twat
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Post by bodger on May 11, 2019 15:55:51 GMT
thanks, there are 2 tapped holes in the MK conical casting that take the long set screws that retain the original motor - I guess you could have used those. a few months ago I found a forum where there was a thread about making an MK motor more efficient. they recommended a model aircraft prop, but I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY A PROP DESIGNED FOR USE IN AIR WOULD BE MORE EFFICIENT THAN A WIDE BLADED PROP DESIGNED FOR WATER. ANY IDEAS? they also recommended fitting a streamlined conical 'spinner' to the prop, matched to the casing outer diameter, to reduce turbulence behind the motor body. sorry about the capitals - my finger slipped! PS - makes a change to have an interesting technical discussion instead of the usual pointless banter
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 16:08:00 GMT
Control gear for these motors is basically a rc model ESC and a servo tester. This motor can draw a lot of power. However I am going to try it with a 30a ESC as I have one. A fit a 30a resettable fuse on the power line. The ESC can be programmed using a basic servo tester which is about £5. I have used a very similar motor in my kayak which is stealth shaft direct drive and the speed control is this Which is a servo tester I wrapped in loads of glue lined heatshrink to make it more durable. This item on eBay rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F272981179527I cut all except one row of pins off as it is more tidy like that. This controls the ESC and can be used to program the ramp-up ie acceleration and other parameters like low voltage cutout behaviour. ESC I used on my kayak was a Hobbywing Skywalker 60a unit rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?mpre=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fulk%2Fitm%2F113734994934Annoyingly you have to fit your own connectors. I was lazy and just used blue crimp bullets as they happen to match the motor wire connectors. It does work and that particular kayak will pull about 350w at 12v and using an APC 10x6 prop will go fast enough to make a wash which rocks narrow boats about A bit silly but quite amusing.
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Post by Deleted on May 11, 2019 16:10:46 GMT
thanks, there are 2 tapped holes in the MK conical casting that take the long set screws that retain the original motor - I guess you could have used those. a few months ago I found a forum where there was a thread about making an MK motor more efficient. they recommended a model aircraft prop, but I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY A PROP DESIGNED FOR USE IN AIR WOULD BE MORE EFFICIENT THAN A WIDE BLADED PROP DESIGNED FOR WATER. ANY IDEAS? they also recommended fitting a streamlined conical 'spinner' to the prop, matched to the casing outer diameter, to reduce turbulence behind the motor body. sorry about the capitals - my finger slipped! PS - makes a change to have an interesting technical discussion instead of the usual pointless banter Minn Kota props are designed to push heavy boats slowly and chop up weeds. They are not efficient for light vessels. RC plane props are incredibly efficient in water but can not deal with the slightest bit of weed. Non at all. So unless you go in very clean deep water I think you will get some problems using an rc plane prop. I certainly do with my kayak. The other option is Kipawa props for Minn Kota. They are quite good.
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