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Post by TonyDunkley on May 29, 2019 8:42:19 GMT
"...but you’ll need to check that..." And there lies the crux of the matter. If you want an authoritative opinion on which to hang a legal challenge it'll costya, to say nothing of the legal action itself. In truth, there lies a complete inability on the part of the pleasure boating public in general to grasp the reality of this situation ! Along with a couple of other similarly defunct commercial operators in the Northeast I've been at odds for a very long time with BWB and C&RT over, amongst much else, wrongly applied/collected VAT on their commercial vessel charges, and in my case, their fraudulent 'Rivers only Licences' too. The arguments go back over the last twenty or more years covering every aspect of their wrongdoings, so there really isn't anything left to ask them, . . . every conceivable avenue has been explored, ad nauseum, and they have consistently either lied or simply refused to answer, throughout the entire process. The 'crux' of the matter is that almost nobody from the world of pleasure boating has supported or joined in with us in all the attempts there have been to make BWB, and now C&RT, toe the line and behave like something resembling a reasonable, honest, competent, and professional navigation authority. Numbers are always crucial to successful protest and results against corrupt and out of control authorities such as C&RT, and a few lone voices were never going to succeed. My personal view is that, in C&RT, the majority of the pleasure boating fraternity have got just what they deserve.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 9:33:20 GMT
"...but you’ll need to check that..." And there lies the crux of the matter. If you want an authoritative opinion on which to hang a legal challenge it'll costya, to say nothing of the legal action itself. In truth, there lies a complete inability on the part of the pleasure boating public in general to grasp the reality of this situation ! Along with a couple of other similarly defunct commercial operators in the Northeast I've been at odds for a very long time with BWB and C&RT over, amongst much else, wrongly applied/collected VAT on their commercial vessel charges, and in my case, their fraudulent 'Rivers only Licences' too. The arguments go back over the last twenty or more years covering every aspect of their wrongdoings, so there really isn't anything left to ask them, . . . every conceivable avenue has been explored, ad nauseum, and they have consistently either lied or simply refused to answer, throughout the entire process. The 'crux' of the matter is that almost nobody from the world of pleasure boating has supported or joined in with us in all the attempts there have been to make BWB, and now C&RT, toe the line and behave like something resembling a reasonable, honest, competent, and professional navigation authority. Numbers are always crucial to successful protest and results against corrupt and out of control authorities such as C&RT, and a few lone voices were never going to succeed. My personal view is that, in C&RT, the majority of the pleasure boating fraternity have got just what they deserve. I know I won’t be popular for saying this but you seem to be blaming boaters for their inaction Tony. That’s not the best way to get them on your side. Unless enough boaters are being directly affected by an issue it’s unlikely they will will get involved. As I said, how many people here might be affected by VAT on the imaginary rivers only licence? How many people here are affected by having to worry about mooring inside or outside the navigable channel on rivers? Also, if the case is not strong or straight forward enough, it will take a lot of effort, money and time to convince a judge. If CRT started to chuck lots of liveaboards out of their homes or CRT start to shut down parts of the navigation, then you might see some action. That’s why the NBTA seem to be fairly effective compared with other boating associations. I do applaud anyone like yourself who tries to seek the truth and justice but I’m afraid some issues capture the imagination of the public more than others (and getting the general public on your side is an important thing).
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Post by NigelMoore on May 29, 2019 9:52:18 GMT
Numbers are always crucial to successful protest and results against corrupt and out of control authorities such as C&RT, and a few lone voices were never going to succeed. My personal view is that, in C&RT, the majority of the pleasure boating fraternity have got just what they deserve. I’m afraid some issues capture the imagination of the public more than others (and getting the general public on your side is an important thing). Is that not exactly what he is saying?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 10:56:24 GMT
I’m afraid some issues capture the imagination of the public more than others (and getting the general public on your side is an important thing). Is that not exactly what he is saying? Yes, but what about the rest of my post you’ve cut out? Cheap shot Nigel. To simplify, it’s no good blaming boaters for not supporting issues which are regarded by them as trivial. That won’t get people on his side.
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Post by NigelMoore on May 29, 2019 11:16:45 GMT
Is that not exactly what he is saying? Yes, but what about the rest of my post you’ve cut out? Cheap shot Nigel. To simplify, it’s no good blaming boaters for not supporting issues which are regarded by them as trivial. That won’t get people on his side. It was not a 'shot', cheap or otherwise. I happen to agree with you both. I did not, however, read Tony's last post as intended to garner support, but rather as a resigned acknowledgement that the support did not exist. The closing comment reflected A C Dicey's endorsement of the proposition that peoples get the form of government they deserve. Perhaps also applicable being de Tocqueville's reflection: “ What do [nations] lack to be free? What? The very desire to be so. Do not ask me to analyze this sublime desire, it must be felt… One must give up on making this comprehensible to mediocre souls who have never felt it.”
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 11:24:50 GMT
Yes, but what about the rest of my post you’ve cut out? Cheap shot Nigel. To simplify, it’s no good blaming boaters for not supporting issues which are regarded by them as trivial. That won’t get people on his side. It was not a 'shot', cheap or otherwise. I happen to agree with you both. I did not, however, read Tony's last post as as intended to garner support, but rather as a resigned acknowledgement that the support did not exist. The closing comment reflected A C Dicey's endorsement of the proposition that peoples get the form of government they deserve. Perhaps also applicable being de Tocqueville's reflection: “ What do [nations] lack to be free? What? The very desire to be so. Do not ask me to analyze this sublime desire, it must be felt… One must give up on making this comprehensible to mediocre souls who have never felt it.” On the VAT issue, I think quite a few people would be interested if Tony gets a reply from CRT.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 29, 2019 14:35:51 GMT
Thick people will get shafted time after time. Survival of the fittest, and the Terminally Thick are simply not the fittest.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 14:50:24 GMT
Thick people will get shafted time after time. Survival of the fittest, and the Terminally Thick are simply not the fittest. Just maybe that’s where you are wrong Foxy. Intellegence has nothing to do with being nice or kind to others. In fact, it’s often an obstacle.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 15:50:43 GMT
Its quite possible that the large proportion of boat owners are content with the existing situation. They pay their money and do their boating. It is such a huge bargain in the first place the vat thing really isn't going to make the difference to boating or not boating. If you are trying to pare the costs down to the minimum possible then you might be worried about a hundred pounds a year* but I don't reckon it amounts to a hill of beans for your average pleasure boater.
Of course a lot of people are using boats as a way to minimise their living costs so they might be interested in it however they are not pleasure boaters.
*Rivers only for an average boat say 40-45ft is about £500 a year this is the hat I pulled the £100 a year figure out of.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 29, 2019 15:54:21 GMT
Its quite possible that the large proportion of boat owners are content with the existing situation. They pay their money and do their boating. It is such a huge bargain in the first place I often think of what Stabby said - imagine getting what Tuel Lane Lock holds - 140,000 gallons (or 190,000 for longer boats) out of your kitchen tap and paying for it from your water company. Does make the licence look cheap, does it not?
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Post by TonyDunkley on May 29, 2019 16:13:44 GMT
In truth, there lies a complete inability on the part of the pleasure boating public in general to grasp the reality of this situation ! Along with a couple of other similarly defunct commercial operators in the Northeast I've been at odds for a very long time with BWB and C&RT over, amongst much else, wrongly applied/collected VAT on their commercial vessel charges, and in my case, their fraudulent 'Rivers only Licences' too. The arguments go back over the last twenty or more years covering every aspect of their wrongdoings, so there really isn't anything left to ask them, . . . every conceivable avenue has been explored, ad nauseum, and they have consistently either lied or simply refused to answer, throughout the entire process. The 'crux' of the matter is that almost nobody from the world of pleasure boating has supported or joined in with us in all the attempts there have been to make BWB, and now C&RT, toe the line and behave like something resembling a reasonable, honest, competent, and professional navigation authority. Numbers are always crucial to successful protest and results against corrupt and out of control authorities such as C&RT, and a few lone voices were never going to succeed. My personal view is that, in C&RT, the majority of the pleasure boating fraternity have got just what they deserve. If CRT started to chuck lots of liveaboards out of their homes or CRT start to shut down parts of the navigation, then you might see some action. That’s why the NBTA seem to be fairly effective compared with other boating associations. One or the other of us appears to be living in a parallel universe or time line with very different events and occurrences. I'm fairly confident it isn't me !
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 16:28:51 GMT
- 140,000 gallons (or 190,000 for longer boats) That's interesting are there three sets of gates?
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Post by naughtyfox on May 29, 2019 16:43:30 GMT
- 140,000 gallons (or 190,000 for longer boats) That's interesting are there three sets of gates? Yes.
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2019 16:50:12 GMT
If CRT started to chuck lots of liveaboards out of their homes or CRT start to shut down parts of the navigation, then you might see some action. That’s why the NBTA seem to be fairly effective compared with other boating associations. One or the other of us appears to be living in a parallel universe or time line with very different events and occurrences. I'm fairly confident it isn't me ! Well, it appears that there have been a few instances where CRT have tried to pull the plug on liveaboards. It also appears that there have been a few major breaches in the navigation. I agree. we are in in different universes.
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Post by naughtyfox on May 29, 2019 16:55:21 GMT
In truth, there lies a complete inability on the part of the pleasure boating public in general to grasp the reality of this situation ! Along with a couple of other similarly defunct commercial operators in the Northeast I've been at odds for a very long time with BWB and C&RT over, amongst much else, wrongly applied/collected VAT on their commercial vessel charges, and in my case, their fraudulent 'Rivers only Licences' too. The arguments go back over the last twenty or more years covering every aspect of their wrongdoings, so there really isn't anything left to ask them, . . . every conceivable avenue has been explored, ad nauseum, and they have consistently either lied or simply refused to answer, throughout the entire process. The 'crux' of the matter is that almost nobody from the world of pleasure boating has supported or joined in with us in all the attempts there have been to make BWB, and now C&RT, toe the line and behave like something resembling a reasonable, honest, competent, and professional navigation authority. Numbers are always crucial to successful protest and results against corrupt and out of control authorities such as C&RT, and a few lone voices were never going to succeed. My personal view is that, in C&RT, the majority of the pleasure boating fraternity have got just what they deserve. If CRT started to chuck lots of liveaboards out of their homes or CRT start to shut down parts of the navigation, then you might see some action.
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