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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 22, 2016 15:24:57 GMT
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Post by peterboat on Aug 22, 2016 15:28:28 GMT
I agree with you John My whinge was a justified one people cant just dump boats for weeks on end on popular stretches of moorings its not fare and in most cases does break the rules. Whilst in the dry dock I walked the dog around those areas and in some cases talked to the patrol officer as he did his work, its easier for him if he doesnt have to confront an irate boater he just sends an email job done. On the sunday as I went into dry dock the moorings were full to overflowing yet some of those boat had been there for a month with nobody around them [heresay from other moorers]. When I came out the following Sunday I struggled to get a mooring whilst I cleaned up the boat, In the end I moored on the waterpoint and scrubbed the boat down and when finished 1 had come vacant so I was ok for the night. It has been very busy this year which is a good thing plenty of other boats to share locks in and chat but people are getting fed up of moorings full of dumpers and CMers especially when they are the best spots
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 22, 2016 15:41:57 GMT
On the enforcement thing, as far as I can tell the only people who have a problem / likely to have more of a problem in the future, are those who want to live on a boat but not actually boat much, and need to stay in one smallish area due to school, jobs etc. but don't want to get a mooring (or can't). I'm not sure what percentage of total boats these ones represent, but I think it will be a very small nmuber compared to the hordes of boats in marinas etc. So if that is the slant of the OP, perhaps it would have been better phrased as "the future of live-aboard CCers with kids or a job". For them, I can see the continuing pressure to comply with the rules being maintained or increased. Especially with the problems in London being rather under the government's nose. If there are successful court cases to challenge CRT's interpretations of the rules such that London becomes even more of a free-for-all I can see that leading to new legislation. So be careful what you wish for! How do you feel about people wanting to bring up a family on a boat?
I don't have a problem with that at all - why should I? However I also think that if the only way to bring up a family on a boat is by breaking the rules and not honouring the agreements you have signed up to, then that is a bad thing.
I don't have any kids but if I did I would perhaps not want to do it as if you are going to live in a marina you might as well live on a housing estate, and if you want to CC then you would realistically have to home school your kids and that is something I am against because I think it is bad for the kids - they lose out on the normal peer social interactions, ups and downs of school life which I think are important developmental factors. If they spend most of their time in adult company they will be precocious and perhaps struggle with same-age friendships and relationships.
I suggest that the best thing for the kids would be to have a house and spend plenty of leisure time as a family on the boat - but I realise not everyone can afford that.
One should be careful to do what is best for the kids, not subject them to some social experiment or desire to be "different" for the sake of it just to please one's self, not the kids. They are not your playthings!
The bottom line is that you can bring up a family as you see fit, but that freedom (to do as you please with your kids short of physical abuse, which I sometimes think is the final bastion of absence of human rights in the UK) should not be abused by some hairbrained ideas for one's own benefit.
Of course people do do all the things above that I am "anti" but I wonder how well their children eventually fit into the world? On the other hand it would be dull if we were all the same!
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Post by kris on Aug 22, 2016 15:45:01 GMT
We all know of examples where people take the piss, but they are in the minority. So for the sake of the waterways we have to all get over the devisive tactics of name calling and realise there are just different ways In which people want to enjoy the waterways.
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Post by peterboat on Aug 22, 2016 16:02:34 GMT
The waterways are for all and that means someone who just has a few weeks a year out in their boat shouldnt find moorings filled with CMers and dumped boats which is happening, I have said in the past lots of run down industrial areas are ideal to turn into cheap moorings they have water hard standing for vehicles and could be made secure, that is one way of helping some people. But their has to be rules, and they arnt hard to follow, yet people still think they arnt for them but for others to follow. I was chatting to 2 people that had Ghost moorings because the used to be under the idea that they were then excluded from moving every 14 days both were under warning and now know different. I told them that all they had to do was visit the mooring every now and then and the clock was reset. But as I said at the beginning of this thread I am not having any more problems than 12 years ago in fact this trip every lock worked and more than ever were manned by vol lockies or real lockies hoo ray for CRT
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Post by hilda on Aug 22, 2016 16:08:10 GMT
Yesterday I stumbled across a page where the IWA and CRT quite openly stated they want to clear away on-line moorings within 30 miles of marinas - so that virtually means the whole system?! Yes, bundle everyone into marinas where 1. the marina scrapes in a barrel of dosh for providing... well, not a lot! 2. CRT rakes in the percentage the marina pays to them. Boaters get to moan a lot and pay through the nose, Richard Parry jets off to visit his money in the Caribbean. I sometimes wish I were in charge. I would like to run things the way people here on Thunderboat would like them to be run, and I think that's 'the old fashioned way' with canals and boating introducing people to the countryside and history of Britain, and giving people the opportunity to engage in real adventures, not Mickey-Mouse-Dismalworld fantasy shit. A reasonable charge for a licence, with a reasonable service. Britain's canals are unique but the easy-money-grabbers are on the predatory hunt. Many people running the canals need a very good kick up the arse, not to mention the politicians who have allowed this nonsense in the first place - but then they are too busy shagging 22-year-olds in their Parliamentary Office or sending lurid obscene texts to 17-year-olds, which makes a break from them supervising the raising of the Pakistan flag above Rochdale Town Hall. The canals and inland waterways can provide enjoyable work for many, and I think the canals/inland waterways should be made as free as possible and available to all at a minimal cost. They are part of what makes Britain still great. Boating is one way to introduce everyone to education in so many ways - technical stuff, nature, cookery, being self-sufficient. Families living on boats should be encouraged, as they help to give colour and life to the canals - but here a balance needs to be maintained as we can't have the whole system a line of boats choc-a-bloc with families and everyone else having to drive past at 'tickover' for eternity. But who can achieve what? The majority have voted for a 'Brexit' - yet fuck all has happened so far! Just a lot of whinging about dreary old Corbyn... for Goodness Sake, the whole country needs a damned good shake-up. Never mind, scampi and chips and mushy peas and some cheap beer at a Wetherspoons will make us all feel better, eh?
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 22, 2016 16:43:50 GMT
Hold on - didn't I just say that??!!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 8:22:20 GMT
You have a CEO who knows nothing about waterways. (knows a lot about trains). The majority of the office staff know nothing about waterways. (They do know about selling insurance, running theme park rides, running the veg counter at M&S, working on submarines, and of course a chairman who saved co op from the grasps of spar).
Yes, the waterways are in deep shit.
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Post by kris on Aug 23, 2016 9:00:19 GMT
You have a CEO who knows nothing about waterways. (knows a lot about trains). The majority of the office staff know nothing about waterways. (They do know about selling insurance, running theme park rides, running the veg counter at M&S, working on submarines, and of course a chairman who saved co op from the grasps of spar). Yes, the waterways are in deep shit. but do you see a solution or do you think the best policy is too keep your head down and hope it lasts until you don't need to use it anymore. This is the answer a lot of boaters seem to have come up with.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 9:07:04 GMT
You have a CEO who knows nothing about waterways. (knows a lot about trains). The majority of the office staff know nothing about waterways. (They do know about selling insurance, running theme park rides, running the veg counter at M&S, working on submarines, and of course a chairman who saved co op from the grasps of spar). Yes, the waterways are in deep shit. but do you see a solution or do you think the best policy is too keep your head down and hope it lasts until you don't need to use it anymore. This is the answer a lot of boaters seem to have come up with. There are plenty of solutions, but as you so rightly (in my opinion) point out, the majority of today's boat owners are only interested in the waterways surviving for as long as they wish to use them. Without the input and commitment of the stakeholders, the waterways will decline, and to be honest, I think the decline has started, and is probably irreversible.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 9:21:30 GMT
but do you see a solution or do you think the best policy is too keep your head down and hope it lasts until you don't need to use it anymore. This is the answer a lot of boaters seem to have come up with. There are plenty of solutions, but as you so rightly (in my opinion) point out, the majority of today's boat owners are only interested in the waterways surviving for as long as they wish to use them. Without the input and commitment of the stakeholders, the waterways will decline, and to be honest, I think the decline has started, and is probably irreversible. This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 9:30:40 GMT
There are plenty of solutions, but as you so rightly (in my opinion) point out, the majority of today's boat owners are only interested in the waterways surviving for as long as they wish to use them. Without the input and commitment of the stakeholders, the waterways will decline, and to be honest, I think the decline has started, and is probably irreversible. This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs. Of course they are better now than they were in the 60's, but that has no relevance to the issues that are apparent today. Ultimately the canals are a navigation, a means of transport by way of "boats". They should be maintained in the manner which allows that to continue.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 9:35:20 GMT
There are plenty of solutions, but as you so rightly (in my opinion) point out, the majority of today's boat owners are only interested in the waterways surviving for as long as they wish to use them. Without the input and commitment of the stakeholders, the waterways will decline, and to be honest, I think the decline has started, and is probably irreversible. This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs. Well the canals must have been in a worse state when you go back that far. After all you only have to look at the amount of voluntary work which went on to renovate them. That's why I believe that we need to bring back that voluntary spirit to keep the canals in a serviceable state. You can chuck as much money at a problem as you like (National Lottery steath tax for example). Without people who genuinely care about it's future, we are stuffed. In the ideal world, canal and boating organisations/associations need to have more clout over CRT. At the moment, those driving CRT have succeeded in suppressing them. You have to ask why this has been allowed to happen really.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 9:41:04 GMT
This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs. Of course they are better now than they were in the 60's, but that has no relevance to the issues that are apparent today. Ultimately the canals are a navigation, a means of transport by way of "boats". They should be maintained in the manner which allows that to continue. Yes they are a navigation, a means of transport. And they are maintained in a manner that allows that to continue. Ok there may be some minor variations in the standard of that maintenance but not much. We recently did Fazeley to Froghall (Caldon canal) across the Middlewich, down the shroppie, down the S&W, up the Stourport into Brum, down the B&F back home. All the locks were fine (and there were a lorra lorra locks!) no more than a handful of paddles out of action (maybe 4 or 5), no other lock difficulties. Ok a bit shallow in places but a need for dredging is hampered by stupid landfill tax and anyway, dredging can be done anytime. So I just don't see any decay in the usability of the system such as other posters seem to be alluding to. As far as I can tell most of the complaints relate to limitations on the use of the canal as a housing estate, something even you agree was not their original purpose.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 9:46:51 GMT
This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs. Well the canals must have been in a worse state when you go back that far. After all you only have to look at the amount of voluntary work which went on to renovate them. That's why I believe that we need to bring back that voluntary spirit to keep the canals in a serviceable state. You can chuck as much money at a problem as you like (National Lottery steath tax for example). Without people who genuinely care about it's future, we are stuffed. In the ideal world, canal and boating organisations/associations need to have more clout over CRT. At the moment, those driving CRT have succeeded in suppressing them. You have to ask why this has been allowed to happen really. I think the K&A is a good classic example of "fucking up". Volunteers worked tirelessly to bring it back to life. The minute it was handed over to BW and then CRT, it went into decline. This summer has seen its worst year performance wise, with major failures on a weekly basis. CRT have been emphatically blaming boat owners for the failures in the area, when in reality, it's been down to the neglect and failure of a navigation authority that does not really know what it's objectives are.
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