|
Post by JohnV on Aug 23, 2016 9:53:39 GMT
This all seems quite a negative and short-termist view. I know some of you guys have been boating for 10 years or whatever and think that is a REALLY long time. However it isn't. I started in the late 60s, 50'years ago, and I can tell you that compared to then, the infrastructure is in MUCH MUCH better shape now. All of Birmingham was a filthy wreck, now it is great. Lots of canals that were closed then, are now reopened. The canals were barely used then, now they are bustling. Perhaps there has been a slight dip in serviceability since CRT took over but in the great scheme of things it is a tiny short term blip. It certainly doesn't signify the demise of the waterways which, despite much, much greater and more disasterous blips than the last few years, have still lasted 200- 250 years. I'm sure they will continue indefinitely, though perhaps not in the exact form to suit your personal needs. Of course they are better now than they were in the 60's, but that has no relevance to the issues that are apparent today. Ultimately the canals are a navigation, a means of transport by way of "boats". They should be maintained in the manner which allows that to continue. I think it probably does have relevance to today's issues. In the past, things had got so desperate that a mass movement started (headed mostly by the now much maligned IWA) to restore the canal system into a viable system for navigation. Maybe things need to get much worse before the majority of boaters start getting on their soapboxes and shouting. Probably a large number can see the future looking a bit bleak but as they feel it may improve before it really starts affecting them (or they will have fallen off the perch) they are keeping stum. I think it may be necessary for the activists of the present to realise that in themselves their numbers are insufficient to force major change, especially as they seem to have such varied aims. To achieve anything significant, the majority of boat owners of all types need to be involved (some groups as well seem to have aims totally at variance with "navigating" and more in line with affordable/cheap/protected housing. In my humble opinion, a stance that is potentially as damaging to the survival of the canal system as maintenance cuts)
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Aug 23, 2016 9:58:42 GMT
Much as this thread is interesting me, I have to switch off and get cracking (At Benfleet at the moment but driving up to the Fens to the little yoghurt pot for another bash at getting higher up the Great Ouse) I'll have to try and catch up with this thread this evening.
Cheers all
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:00:29 GMT
Much as this thread is interesting me, I have to switch off and get cracking (At Benfleet at the moment but driving up to the Fens to the little yoghurt pot for another bash at getting higher up the Great Ouse) I'll have to try and catch up with this thread this evening. Cheers all Have a nice trip.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 10:01:35 GMT
Well the canals must have been in a worse state when you go back that far. After all you only have to look at the amount of voluntary work which went on to renovate them. That's why I believe that we need to bring back that voluntary spirit to keep the canals in a serviceable state. You can chuck as much money at a problem as you like (National Lottery steath tax for example). Without people who genuinely care about it's future, we are stuffed. In the ideal world, canal and boating organisations/associations need to have more clout over CRT. At the moment, those driving CRT have succeeded in suppressing them. You have to ask why this has been allowed to happen really. I think the K&A is a good classic example of "fucking up". Volunteers worked tirelessly to bring it back to life. The minute it was handed over to BW and then CRT, it went into decline. This summer has seen its worst year performance wise, with major failures on a weekly basis. CRT have been emphatically blaming boat owners for the failures in the area, when in reality, it's been down to the neglect and failure of a navigation authority that does not really know what it's objectives are. Haven't done the K&A since it was fully restored so I can't comment on that particular canal, but I can say that the main part of the system isn't showing significant signs of distress. Of course there is a big problem in the far NE due to the exceptional floods, but I don't think you can blame CRT for that. Perhaps it depends on the particular regional manager? Here in the midlands we have Ian Lane who seems to be very good, with a good sense of priorities and always keen to hear feedback and ideas from boaters. Elsewhere perhaps it is different? I certainly had a disappointing reaction from a minor complaint to the SW/Wales regional manager Nick Worthington.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:02:15 GMT
Of course they are better now than they were in the 60's, but that has no relevance to the issues that are apparent today. Ultimately the canals are a navigation, a means of transport by way of "boats". They should be maintained in the manner which allows that to continue. Yes they are a navigation, a means of transport. And they are maintained in a manner that allows that to continue. Ok there may be some minor variations in the standard of that maintenance but not much. We recently did Fazeley to Froghall (Caldon canal) across the Middlewich, down the shroppie, down the S&W, up the Stourport into Brum, down the B&F back home. All the locks were fine (and there were a lorra lorra locks!) no more than a handful of paddles out of action (maybe 4 or 5), no other lock difficulties. Ok a bit shallow in places but a need for dredging is hampered by stupid landfill tax and anyway, dredging can be done anytime. So I just don't see any decay in the usability of the system such as other posters seem to be alluding to. As far as I can tell most of the complaints relate to limitations on the use of the canal as a housing estate, something even you agree was not their original purpose. In three to four years time, I suspect I will see the value of your boat drop away to virtually nothing. Its deep drafted, and will be of no use to anyone, because it will only be able to cruise the routes CRT want you to use, (and I suspect doing the same route year on year will get pretty boring). It will take 20 years plus to dredge every mile of the canals, some of them won't wait that long, it will be too late, and too expensive. Beyond value for money. Living on the canals 365 days of the year, having a limited cruising pattern (owing to being a fat boat owner), I have seen and continue to see the deterioration year on year. Where the public are most likely to be, Crt will throw money at that area. Outside of those areas, crt quietly leave the neglect to settle in.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 10:13:18 GMT
Yes they are a navigation, a means of transport. And they are maintained in a manner that allows that to continue. Ok there may be some minor variations in the standard of that maintenance but not much. We recently did Fazeley to Froghall (Caldon canal) across the Middlewich, down the shroppie, down the S&W, up the Stourport into Brum, down the B&F back home. All the locks were fine (and there were a lorra lorra locks!) no more than a handful of paddles out of action (maybe 4 or 5), no other lock difficulties. Ok a bit shallow in places but a need for dredging is hampered by stupid landfill tax and anyway, dredging can be done anytime. So I just don't see any decay in the usability of the system such as other posters seem to be alluding to. As far as I can tell most of the complaints relate to limitations on the use of the canal as a housing estate, something even you agree was not their original purpose. In three to four years time, I suspect I will see the value of your boat drop away to virtually nothing. Its deep drafted, and will be of no use to anyone, because it will only be able to cruise the routes CRT want you to use, (and I suspect doing the same route year on year will get pretty boring). It will take 20 years plus to dredge every mile of the canals, some of them won't wait that long, it will be too late, and too expensive. Beyond value for money. Living on the canals 365 days of the year, having a limited cruising pattern (owing to being a fat boat owner), I have seen and continue to see the deterioration year on year. Where the public are most likely to be, Crt will throw money at that area. Outside of those areas, crt quietly leave the neglect to settle in. I think you are scaremongering and catastrophising. We have had that boat 5 years now and I haven't noticed any deterioration in depth. Whereas some canals in our area are much deeper than they were, eg the whole loop round the northern BCN ie Tame Valley, Rushall, Curley Wurley is now good for 3.5mph. And those are some of the least used bits of canal. The only remaining truly awful bit of canal round here is the Walsall, and apparently that has now had some work done though we've yet to build up the courage to try it again! i don't doubt what you say, but I think extrapolating from your limited (by fat boat) experiences, to the whole system, is not valid. Anyway, CRT have probably realised that no-one on the KandA ever moves, so what would be the point of maintaining the locks? (joke, by the way!)
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:16:41 GMT
Of course they are better now than they were in the 60's, but that has no relevance to the issues that are apparent today. Ultimately the canals are a navigation, a means of transport by way of "boats". They should be maintained in the manner which allows that to continue. I think it probably does have relevance to today's issues. In the past, things had got so desperate that a mass movement started (headed mostly by the now much maligned IWA) to restore the canal system into a viable system for navigation. Maybe things need to get much worse before the majority of boaters start getting on their soapboxes and shouting. Probably a large number can see the future looking a bit bleak but as they feel it may improve before it really starts affecting them (or they will have fallen off the perch) they are keeping stum. I think it may be necessary for the activists of the present to realise that in themselves their numbers are insufficient to force major change, especially as they seem to have such varied aims. To achieve anything significant, the majority of boat owners of all types need to be involved (some groups as well seem to have aims totally at variance with "navigating" and more in line with affordable/cheap/protected housing. In my humble opinion, a stance that is potentially as damaging to the survival of the canal system as maintenance cuts) The past has no relevance to the future of the canals. The past has gone. The future is yet to come. In reality, the very groups you seem to have an issue with, are the only ones who show sincerity in keeping the canals alive. Liveaboards tend to commit to the canals, (long term) they ride the rough with the smooth. They are more likely to care for, and help maintain the canals. I have experienced this at meetings, where leisure boaters have stated when asked to join work groups, " I pay to use the canals, not work on them. If they can't be maintained by the authority, I'll just sell up and find another hobby".
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:25:53 GMT
In three to four years time, I suspect I will see the value of your boat drop away to virtually nothing. Its deep drafted, and will be of no use to anyone, because it will only be able to cruise the routes CRT want you to use, (and I suspect doing the same route year on year will get pretty boring). It will take 20 years plus to dredge every mile of the canals, some of them won't wait that long, it will be too late, and too expensive. Beyond value for money. Living on the canals 365 days of the year, having a limited cruising pattern (owing to being a fat boat owner), I have seen and continue to see the deterioration year on year. Where the public are most likely to be, Crt will throw money at that area. Outside of those areas, crt quietly leave the neglect to settle in. I think you are scaremongering and catastrophising. We have had that boat 5 years now and I haven't noticed any deterioration in depth. Whereas some canals in our area are much deeper than they were, eg the whole loop round the northern BCN ie Tame Valley, Rushall, Curley Wurley is now good for 3.5mph. And those are some of the least used bits of canal. The only remaining truly awful bit of canal round here is the Walsall, and apparently that has now had some work done though we've yet to build up the courage to try it again! i don't doubt what you say, but I think extrapolating from your limited (by fat boat) experiences, to the whole system, is not valid. Anyway, CRT have probably realised that no-one on the KandA ever moves, so what would be the point of maintaining the locks? (joke, by the way!) I've seen a gradual decline in the state of the infrastructure and seen many canals get shallower over a period of around 20 years. This is over most of the system BTW. Jenlyn isn't scaremongering. What's more scary is the denial and disinformation I keep seeing on forums. Not saying you are BTW. I blame the culture of staring at a screen all day for much of the problem.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 10:26:12 GMT
In three to four years time, I suspect I will see the value of your boat drop away to virtually nothing. Its deep drafted, and will be of no use to anyone, because it will only be able to cruise the routes CRT want you to use, (and I suspect doing the same route year on year will get pretty boring). It will take 20 years plus to dredge every mile of the canals, some of them won't wait that long, it will be too late, and too expensive. Beyond value for money. Living on the canals 365 days of the year, having a limited cruising pattern (owing to being a fat boat owner), I have seen and continue to see the deterioration year on year. Where the public are most likely to be, Crt will throw money at that area. Outside of those areas, crt quietly leave the neglect to settle in. I think you are scaremongering and catastrophising. We have had that boat 5 years now and I haven't noticed any deterioration in depth. Whereas some canals in our area are much deeper than they were, eg the whole loop round the northern BCN ie Tame Valley, Rushall, Curley Wurley is now good for 3.5mph. And those are some of the least used bits of canal. The only remaining truly awful bit of canal round here is the Walsall, and apparently that has now had some work done though we've yet to build up the courage to try it again! i don't doubt what you say, but I think extrapolating from your limited (by fat boat) experiences, to the whole system, is not valid. Anyway, CRT have probably realised that no-one on the KandA ever moves, so what would be the point of maintaining the locks? (joke, by the way!) Think whatever you like. To be honest, I have got to the point where I just sit back and accept the fact these days, that naivety and blinkered vision are the simple escape routes for those that just can't be bothered to do anything other, than stand up and be noticed.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Aug 23, 2016 10:34:02 GMT
In three to four years time, I suspect I will see the value of your boat drop away to virtually nothing. Its deep drafted, and will be of no use to anyone, because it will only be able to cruise the routes CRT want you to use, (and I suspect doing the same route year on year will get pretty boring). It will take 20 years plus to dredge every mile of the canals, some of them won't wait that long, it will be too late, and too expensive. Beyond value for money. Living on the canals 365 days of the year, having a limited cruising pattern (owing to being a fat boat owner), I have seen and continue to see the deterioration year on year. Where the public are most likely to be, Crt will throw money at that area. Outside of those areas, crt quietly leave the neglect to settle in. I think you are scaremongering and catastrophising. We have had that boat 5 years now and I haven't noticed any deterioration in depth. Whereas some canals in our area are much deeper than they were, eg the whole loop round the northern BCN ie Tame Valley, Rushall, Curley Wurley is now good for 3.5mph. And those are some of the least used bits of canal. The only remaining truly awful bit of canal round here is the Walsall, and apparently that has now had some work done though we've yet to build up the courage to try it again! i don't doubt what you say, but I think extrapolating from your limited (by fat boat) experiences, to the whole system, is not valid. Anyway, CRT have probably realised that no-one on the KandA ever moves, so what would be the point of maintaining the locks? (joke, by the way!) i don't think its scaremongering, although as you say Nick it varies a lot around the system, even crt's projections for the 15years of guarnted government funding, was for a reduction in maintenance of 20%. Whilst I can't talk about the whole network from experience, the Leeds @ Liverpool is a shallowest I've seen it. I came down one pound on literally 2inches of water. That's despite bringing it to crt's attention and asking for more water on that pound to be able to navigate it. Whilst I know water is a resource to be managed, it's crt's job to make sure not to much of it leaks. So mending the leaks on that pound so it can be run at its "normal" level rather than just dropping the level would be preferable. Or maybe fixing the gates at river lock so all the water isn't just running into the river might be good. But then what do I know.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 10:39:02 GMT
I think you are scaremongering and catastrophising. We have had that boat 5 years now and I haven't noticed any deterioration in depth. Whereas some canals in our area are much deeper than they were, eg the whole loop round the northern BCN ie Tame Valley, Rushall, Curley Wurley is now good for 3.5mph. And those are some of the least used bits of canal. The only remaining truly awful bit of canal round here is the Walsall, and apparently that has now had some work done though we've yet to build up the courage to try it again! i don't doubt what you say, but I think extrapolating from your limited (by fat boat) experiences, to the whole system, is not valid. Anyway, CRT have probably realised that no-one on the KandA ever moves, so what would be the point of maintaining the locks? (joke, by the way!) I've seen a gradual decline in the state of the infrastructure and seen many canals get shallower over a period of around 20 years. This is over most of the system BTW. Jenlyn isn't scaremongering. What's more scary is the denial and disinformation I keep seeing on forums. Not saying you are BTW. I blame the culture of staring at a screen all day for much of the problem. 25 years ago we started using my mate's boat (draft about 2'2" IIRC). One of the first trips was the S Oxford and I remember it being really slow/shallow. We used that boat for holidays for the next 20 years. Then we got ur boat. We recently did the S Oxford in Telemachus (draft 2'81/2") and it didn't seem that shallow. We moored easily against piling on the summit pound (not at a designated VM). So I just don't see that canals have got shallower over the past 20 years. Well no doubt some have got shallower, some have got deeper having been dredged. It has always been thus. if I thought there was a general decline I'd say so, I have no motive for lying about it. I don't have an "agenda" either way.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Aug 23, 2016 12:59:51 GMT
If the L&L gets any shallower and grown over with weeds they are going to have to start calling it a puddle or a pond not a canal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Aug 23, 2016 13:51:55 GMT
Liveaboard continuous cruisers keep the waterways alive, and "fit for purpose". They are a thorn in crt's backside, because, they continue to exist, and in doing so, they ensure crt respects the responsibilities laid before them by government. This will always be the case as long as there are continuous cruisers.
The canals left to the likes and whims of some leisure boaters, would see CRT neglect vast areas of canal network, only maintaining the popular "touristy prefabricated bubble spots" where some can show off their shiny brass and pop rivets (penis extensions).
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Aug 23, 2016 17:42:26 GMT
Liveaboard continuous cruisers keep the waterways alive, and "fit for purpose". They are a thorn in crt's backside, because, they continue to exist, and in doing so, they ensure crt respects the responsibilities laid before them by government. This will always be the case as long as there are continuous cruisers. The canals left to the likes and whims of some leisure boaters, would see CRT neglect vast areas of canal network, only maintaining the popular "touristy prefabricated bubble spots" where some can show off their shiny brass and pop rivets (penis extensions). I am not sure you are totally correct in that statement. Certainly some do, but some don't. You are ignoring the fact that there are a large number of leisure boaters who in a comparatively restricted time, rack up many more miles than quite a few liveaboard continuous cruisers.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Aug 23, 2016 17:49:08 GMT
Liveaboard continuous cruisers keep the waterways alive, and "fit for purpose". They are a thorn in crt's backside, because, they continue to exist, and in doing so, they ensure crt respects the responsibilities laid before them by government. This will always be the case as long as there are continuous cruisers. The canals left to the likes and whims of some leisure boaters, would see CRT neglect vast areas of canal network, only maintaining the popular "touristy prefabricated bubble spots" where some can show off their shiny brass and pop rivets (penis extensions). I am not sure you are totally correct in that statement. Certainly some do, but some don't. You are ignoring the fact that there are a large number of leisure boaters who in a comparatively restricted time, rack up many more miles than quite a few liveaboard continuous cruisers. Agreed, however I didn't think it worth commenting on because you'll never convince the live-aboards that they aren't the most important element of the canals, so no point in even trying.
|
|