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Post by kris on Aug 23, 2016 22:30:23 GMT
what was the outcome to this? Not a lot in the end. I was quite rude to the enforcement chap who refused to believe my explanation and by that point I had moved jobs and never moored there again. It was just a bit frustrating as I knew I had done nothing against the rules and they were being bastards and insisted I had done something I hadn't. basicly you where threatened with criminalization for going about your lawful bussiness, because crt's enforcement dept isn't fit for purpose.
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Post by Graham on Aug 24, 2016 3:07:08 GMT
As I read D9's OP he was meeting not just the requirements of a boat with a home mooring but also those of a CCer. The boat was navigated from A to B and back again c. From memory there is a precedent setting judgement sighting the Mersey Ferry as being an example if bonafide navigation.
Personally I would have put a complaint in
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Post by naughtyfox on Aug 24, 2016 4:06:50 GMT
And the name of the enforcement officer? Did you ask why he was telling fibs? Have you reported him for his porkies?
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Post by JohnV on Aug 24, 2016 6:30:19 GMT
Not a lot in the end. I was quite rude to the enforcement chap who refused to believe my explanation and by that point I had moved jobs and never moored there again. It was just a bit frustrating as I knew I had done nothing against the rules and they were being bastards and insisted I had done something I hadn't. My dealings with some eo's have done nothing other than show there utter lack of people communication skills. Their approach can immediately get someone's back up, and I have seen normally quiet unobtrusive folk lose it. Making accusations rather than approaching the situation with some pragmatism.On the other hand, the pay is shit for what they do, and I suppose you get what you pay for. It's a part time position now, and favours retired police officers who are merely looking to bump their pension a bit. You obviously have the skills they are looking for in abundance, why don't you apply
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Post by peterboat on Aug 24, 2016 7:35:25 GMT
This is annoying however look at it from the EO's point of view - and let's for a moment forget that the law doesn't control your mooring duration away from your home mooring - as far as he can tell you are taking the piss by mooring in one spot for 5 weeks. He is just doing a job, probably works 9-5 or whatever, doesn't cover the location daily, and you are never on the boat when he passes by, so he doesn't have too much option to have a chat with you, he only has the option of the formal notice. However it would presumably have a contact number for you to phone to clear things up - did you contact him? Your situation seems unusual but it's interesting from a moral point of view: let's say the moorings you mention are VMs in an area when they are in short supply, maybe 24 hr moorings. You arrive at midday when the over-nighters have left. You stay until 8pm with several boats arriving in the afternoon / early evening unable to use your space. After you have left at 8pm no further boats come by looking for a mooring - they have all wanted to find somewhere to stop hours ago. So the space in practice is unusable for an overnight stop. I'd say this is borderline pisstaking. On the other hand if it's just general towpath mooring in an area not in high demand, it wouldnt be affecting anyone else and it should just be a matter of explaining your usage pattern to the EO. What was the actual outcome? On the subject of whether CRT are empowered to control the towpath mooring of someone who as a home mooring, well as I said they probably aren't. On the other hand it is for the general good of all other canal users that an individual can't get a cheap mooring in some out of the way place, and use that as an excuse to permanently position their boat in some public-space honeypot location in high demand, such as central London. See above for the outcome. What made it annoying was that I did speak to the enforcement officer and explain but he refused to believe me. There were both 14 day moorings and 48hr ones outside my work and I always stayed on the 14 day ones. There was always space there, any time of day, not a super popular spot. I remember on the other channel when you said you were going to go to work in your boat. I can see both points of view and Nicks as well, but if I could go to work in my boat I would great way to start and finish the day
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Post by kris on Aug 24, 2016 7:42:12 GMT
See above for the outcome. What made it annoying was that I did speak to the enforcement officer and explain but he refused to believe me. There were both 14 day moorings and 48hr ones outside my work and I always stayed on the 14 day ones. There was always space there, any time of day, not a super popular spot. I remember on the other channel when you said you were going to go to work in your boat. I can see both points of view and Nicks as well, but if I could go to work in my boat I would great way to start and finish the day
unless you get threatened by crt's enforcement dept and they refuse to believe what you say to them!
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2016 7:49:15 GMT
My dealings with some eo's have done nothing other than show there utter lack of people communication skills. Their approach can immediately get someone's back up, and I have seen normally quiet unobtrusive folk lose it. Making accusations rather than approaching the situation with some pragmatism.On the other hand, the pay is shit for what they do, and I suppose you get what you pay for. It's a part time position now, and favours retired police officers who are merely looking to bump their pension a bit. You obviously have the skills they are looking for in abundance, why don't you apply Stop being so silly. Your just making yourself look a bigger prick.
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Post by kris on Aug 24, 2016 12:12:57 GMT
So I see a lot of moaning about other boaters cyclists etc, but not many proffered solutions. Oh well enjoy the waterways while you can, because they won't be here in the same way for much longer.
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Post by peterboat on Aug 24, 2016 14:07:06 GMT
I remember on the other channel when you said you were going to go to work in your boat. I can see both points of view and Nicks as well, but if I could go to work in my boat I would great way to start and finish the day
unless you get threatened by crt's enforcement dept and they refuse to believe what you say to them! Kris if you was the enforcement officer and you saw what Delta did you would think he had taken up residence there. Now me I might wander down to his marina and if I saw his boat there would believe him but its whether he has the time, and how many piss takers he had dealt with that day. As for the rest I aint seeing any evidence up here of problems with our canals and they are under used in comparison to the rest of the system
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 24, 2016 14:11:31 GMT
So I see a lot of moaning about other boaters cyclists etc, but not many proffered solutions. Oh well enjoy the waterways while you can, because they won't be here in the same way for much longer.
Can you say specifically, giving actual personal experiences as opposed to hearsay, what it is that is making you feel this way about the future of the canals?
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Post by kris on Aug 24, 2016 14:12:44 GMT
unless you get threatened by crt's enforcement dept and they refuse to believe what you say to them! Kris if you was the enforcement officer and you saw what Delta did you would think he had taken up residence there. Now me I might wander down to his marina and if I saw his boat there would believe him but its whether he has the time, and how many piss takers he had dealt with that day. As for the rest I aint seeing any evidence up here of problems with our canals and they are under used in comparison to the rest of the system so for the enforcement officer to presume guilt is okay then, because the last few people where, the next person must be guilty. Even a piss taking overstayer with a liscence is a paying customer. Best not even mention Crt, trying to bend the legislation to its own ends. But that's okay because it's to deal with a small percentage of boaters.
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Post by kris on Aug 24, 2016 14:14:25 GMT
So I see a lot of moaning about other boaters cyclists etc, but not many proffered solutions. Oh well enjoy the waterways while you can, because they won't be here in the same way for much longer.
Can you say specifically, giving actual personal experiences as opposed to hearsay, what it is that is making you feel this way about the future of the canals?
dont worry Nick, it won't effect you. Ps if you had read the thread you would see where I've mentioned specific examples.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 24, 2016 14:36:06 GMT
Kris if you was the enforcement officer and you saw what Delta did you would think he had taken up residence there. Now me I might wander down to his marina and if I saw his boat there would believe him but its whether he has the time, and how many piss takers he had dealt with that day. As for the rest I aint seeing any evidence up here of problems with our canals and they are under used in comparison to the rest of the system so for the enforcement officer to presume guilt is okay then, because the last few people where, the next person must be guilty. Even a piss taking overstayer with a liscence is a paying customer. Best not even mention Crt, trying to bend the legislation to its own ends. But that's okay because it's to deal with a small percentage of boaters.
It is reasonable for the enforcement officer to suspect guilt. That is not quite the same as presuming guilt but not far off. He can only go by what he sees. If the evidence points to guilt then he should act on that. There is not really any such thing as certainty in this game! Of course it is not up to him to pronounce guilt and the punishment and certainly he has a duty to listen to the reasons proffered with an open mind. In this specific case of course we only have one side of the story, D9 admits to losing his rag and there was never any follow up so we don't really know if the EO went away still certain of his guilt or not.
There have been plenty of cases mentioned on CWDF where the enforcement dept has approached a person with a suspicion of wrongdoing, the person has explained their actions, and that has been the end of it. Of course no-one likes to be accused of doing something wrong when they haven't, but IMO provided their side is listened to it is not exactly the end of the world, and it is an inevitable consequence of not having moorings policed 24/7.
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Post by Telemachus on Aug 24, 2016 14:37:24 GMT
Can you say specifically, giving actual personal experiences as opposed to hearsay, what it is that is making you feel this way about the future of the canals?
dont worry Nick, it won't effect you. Ps if you had read the thread you would see where I've mentioned specific examples. I have read all the thread but I haven't memorised it all. Be nice and just remind me what your specific beefs are to save me wading through 7 pages!
Edit:
Well not being one to hold my breath, I have scanned all 7 pages reading your posts. So you have found that the L&L needs dredging in places and a pound was low and the lock leading into the river is leaking. From that you extrapolate that the end of the canals is nigh. Fine if you want to think that, but I find your case not proven due to the tiny sample size.
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Post by peterboat on Aug 24, 2016 14:38:25 GMT
Kris if you was the enforcement officer and you saw what Delta did you would think he had taken up residence there. Now me I might wander down to his marina and if I saw his boat there would believe him but its whether he has the time, and how many piss takers he had dealt with that day. As for the rest I aint seeing any evidence up here of problems with our canals and they are under used in comparison to the rest of the system so for the enforcement officer to presume guilt is okay then, because the last few people where, the next person must be guilty. Even a piss taking overstayer with a liscence is a paying customer. Best not even mention Crt, trying to bend the legislation to its own ends. But that's okay because it's to deal with a small percentage of boaters. Yes it is in a way and Delta could have gone to his moorings taken a picture then gone back to work in his boat and if EO wants he can see the picture problem sorted. I have met both sorts of EOs on the towpath and whilst walking the dog chatted to them in most cases they are ok [some are real aresholes] but the issue is if you aint doing owt wrong nothing happens to you
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