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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 25, 2019 20:04:43 GMT
I think the "man on the Clapham omnibus" is a bit out of date. Lambeth: REMAIN 111,584 LEAVE 30,340 You could be right. Perhaps the expression for everyman should be updated to "The man in the flat cap with the whippet".
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Post by Gone on Dec 25, 2019 22:29:59 GMT
I think the "man on the Clapham omnibus" is a bit out of date. Lambeth: REMAIN 111,584 LEAVE 30,340 Clapham is in Lambeth and I suspect is probably fairly indicative of the borough as a whole ie firmly pro remain. I agree with your last paragraph but I don't think the Tories needed any help. Once the Brexit plebiscite was sorted out with a majority for leave it left a clear and obvious path for instant destruction of Labour. A bullet between the eyes. Ironic really that people who would never have voted Tory did so simply because of Brexit. Nothing else. It was a Brexit election. Technically impossible for Johnson to lose it. And this Tory landslide was of course the 2nd reason the plebiscite was originally introduced. The first being to get Cameron his beloved second term in office. Just one big scam. They love it. That is the Corbyn/Remain explanation, but the labour activists in the north & midlands claim that the doorstep concerns were more to do with his background and suitability for the job.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 5:54:33 GMT
Since elections are now won on the perceived merits or otherwise of the party's leader, with smear campaigns being a major factor, and taking into account the fact that no-one actually reads the manifesto of any given party, I suggest that Joanna Lumley be elected as leader, with clones of Felicity Kendal and Jenny Agutter at about 25 years old appointed to shadow Foreign Secretary and Home Secretary respectively. A massive Labour win at the next election is thus assured.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Dec 26, 2019 9:13:28 GMT
Another thing that may have led to Labour's demise, it's rarely mentioned, is their overall approach to politics i.e. 'we know what's best for everyone and will provide it all' Human nature is that, by and large, people enjoy being free to operate as they reasonably choose within their families, peer groups and communities. Sure, people also enjoy being given things for free but they do not like to be controlled. Labour's manifesto suggested more state control than many would like to stomach, I'd suggest.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 26, 2019 9:29:24 GMT
I firmly believe that the overwhelming reason for Labour's annihilation was their anti-Brexit stance. They won one seat in a wealthy part of London and lost dozens in the industrial Midlands and North. They have been taken over by the Islington set, whose hatred of the working class is palpable.
Labour will not win another election until and unless they reverse this. I would sooner we had a pro-Brexit Labour government, but a pro-Brexit Conservative government is preferable to a pro-Remain Labour government.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 9:31:06 GMT
The suggestion that a 'smear campaign' against the labour leadership was the reason for the party's rejection by huge swathes of the public may be appealing ... until one examines the utter mistrust, contempt and unreliability in which Boris is understandably held.
How UNPOPULAR must Corbyn be, that Boris is the response !
I do hope Labour will not continue to delude themselves in this way, and will reject Momentum and it's policies to retake the centre left of my youth. But we shall see ... the front runners for leadership would suggest more of the same.
Rog
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Post by JohnV on Dec 26, 2019 9:42:31 GMT
I firmly believe that the overwhelming reason for Labour's annihilation was their anti-Brexit stance. They won one seat in a wealthy part of London and lost dozens in the industrial Midlands and North. They have been taken over by the Islington set, whose hatred of the working class is palpable. Labour will not win another election until and unless they reverse this. I would sooner we had a pro-Brexit Labour government, but a pro-Brexit Conservative government is preferable to a pro-Remain Labour government. I don't completely agree with the underlined part* but applaud the sentiment of the post * I'm a great believer in "it all depends"
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 10:08:29 GMT
The suggestion that a 'smear campaign' against the labour leadership was the reason for the party's rejection by huge swathes of the public may be appealing ... until one examines the utter mistrust, contempt and unreliability in which Boris is understandably held. How UNPOPULAR must Corbyn be, that Boris is the response ! I do hope Labour will not continue to delude themselves in this way, and will reject Momentum and it's policies to retake the centre left of my youth. But we shall see ... the front runners for leadership would suggest more of the same. Rog I didn't suggest this election was the result of a smear campaign notwithstanding the fact that Corbyn is the most smeared politician in history. IMHO the election was won because Corbyn sat on the fence of the Brexit issue while Boris stated his intentions and just about everyone outside of Scotland, Islington and Hackney was and is sick to death of the stalemate. Yes, I know there were other factors but that was the big one. And be honest, it was a very unusual situation. I did suggest that most people have little or no grasp of the issues facing the country at any given moment (unless there's a war in progress) and cast their votes largely on the basis of the perceived character of the leader of any given party. Being good-looking always helps.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 10:22:01 GMT
Can it be referred to as a 'smear' if it is raising facts of someone's history ? Boris throughout the campaign was rightly portrayed as the PM who was proved in court to have behaved illegally, had tried to stifle parliamentary debate, and had proved himself to be untrustworthy. The suggestion that Boris won any kind of popularity contest conducted by the media is farcical. Some of these northern heartlands still loathe and despise the Tories ... and even so found them preferable to Labour under Momentum. If that single issue isn't firmly grasped, I fear Mr Stabby could be right, and Labour are destined for decades in the political wilderness. Rog
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Post by lollygagger on Dec 26, 2019 10:25:00 GMT
Labour are pure and simple idiots, or a put up job. Maybe every conservative paid 80p to join the Labour party when he was voted in as leader. New student type members were reported to have caused it at the time but one wonders.
A pro Brexit Labour party would have won this and particularly the previous general election, then the could have addressed their proclaimed human and workers rights, green issues and the rest as the party in government instead of whining on as if it's all inevitable. Weak, weak, weak, short sighted politics by committee.
I'd suggest the votes they did get were not favourable to Jezza, but purely anti conservative.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 10:31:38 GMT
Can it be referred to as a 'smear' if it is raising facts of someone's history ? Boris throughout the campaign was rightly portrayed as the PM who was proved in court to have behaved illegally, had tried to stifle parliamentary debate, and had proved himself to be untrustworthy. The suggestion that Boris won any kind of popularity contest conducted by the media is farcical. Some of these northern heartlands still loathe and despise the Tories ... and even so found them preferable to Labour under Momentum. If that single issue isn't firmly grasped, I fear Mr Stabby could be right, and Labour are destined for decades in the political wilderness. Rog I'll bet you anything you like that if you took a poll asking 'man in street' to name the occasions when Boris was found wanting as you correctly state, the answer which would be in the region of 80% or more would be 'don't know'. If the Brexit issue was not present, Labour would have fared much better - however distasteful momentum appears.
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Post by mouse on Dec 26, 2019 10:39:38 GMT
Labour seem to have the ability to elect poor leaders.
Corbyn - Students choice and terrorist sympathiser. Ed Milliband - Unions choice and smiling backstabber. Gordon Brown - pick me, pick me, it's my turn next. Tony Blair - Tory Mk 2 and warmonger. Neil Kinnock - Hectoring tone who along with his family has done very well out of the EU. Michael Foot - Useless Worzel Gummidge.
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Post by lollygagger on Dec 26, 2019 10:45:15 GMT
I like to think I have quite a good insiders overview of the UK. Brought up in Rugby (posh at the time) then Lincoln (gritty). I've been a squatter in London, laboured on farms, been a fitter, a draughtsman, a company director, a design consultant. I've lived in London, Bristol, Sheffield, Ely, bought a house, sold it. I wonder sometimes if beneath that skin of northern friendliness they all hate each other really and it's there to prevent life being a constant punch up. Bristolians are as friendly as any Northerners.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 10:56:51 GMT
Labour seem to have the ability to elect poor leaders. Corbyn - Students choice and terrorist sympathiser. Ed Milliband - Unions choice and smiling backstabber. Gordon Brown - pick me, pick me, it's my turn next. Tony Blair - Tory Mk 2 and warmonger. Neil Kinnock - Hectoring tone who along with his family has done very well out of the EU. Michael Foot - Useless Worzel Gummidge. Simply the fact you have Corbyn down as 'terrorist sympathiser' is as good as a reflection of the efficacy of the smear campaign as any I could mention. Also in the last few minutes I was thinking about a girl I used to know who dogmatically voted Labour specifically because the friends she wanted to keep in with did so. And you couldn't have described her as stupid - in fact she had taken a first-class degree from a quite prestigious uni, nor, being from Wigan, could you have said she was born with a silver spoon in her mouth. She just didn't give a flying fuck about politics.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 26, 2019 10:58:18 GMT
Can it be referred to as a 'smear' if it is raising facts of someone's history ? Boris throughout the campaign was rightly portrayed as the PM who was proved in court to have behaved illegally, had tried to stifle parliamentary debate, and had proved himself to be untrustworthy. The suggestion that Boris won any kind of popularity contest conducted by the media is farcical. Some of these northern heartlands still loathe and despise the Tories ... and even so found them preferable to Labour under Momentum. If that single issue isn't firmly grasped, I fear Mr Stabby could be right, and Labour are destined for decades in the political wilderness. Rog If the Brexit issue was not present, Labour would have fared much better - however distasteful momentum appears. Equally, had Labour been prepared to acknowledge the enormous downward pressure on British working class wages and conditions caused by mass immigration of a workforce from post-Communist economies for whom the National Minimum Wage was a highly attractive prospect, and had they adopted a more appropriate position with regard to the negative aspects of eu membership, then the working class would not have turned away from Labour in droves.
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