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Post by lollygagger on Dec 26, 2019 11:10:20 GMT
It's a peculiar aspect of our party politics that the Conservatives can and do shaft everyone, are well known for it and still regularly get voted in, but Labour live under the shadow of every previous misdemeanor all heaped up in a pile.
Knock the Conservatives and it slips off, largely ignored.
Knock Labour and they cringe, deny, have a meeting, make a press statement, make another later denying some aspect of the first, get an clueless MP grilled on TV and generally look as if they don't believe the party line they are spinning.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 11:15:23 GMT
If the Brexit issue was not present, Labour would have fared much better - however distasteful momentum appears. Equally, had Labour been prepared to acknowledge the enormous downward pressure on British working class wages and conditions caused by mass immigration of a workforce from post-Communist economies for whom the National Minimum Wage was a highly attractive prospect, and had they adopted a more appropriate position with regard to the negative aspects of eu membership, then the working class would not have turned away from Labour in droves. I have to agree with you, but had Brexit not been put to a referendum do you think the Tories would have cared about that either? Come to think of it, I don't recall Boris talking passionately about the plight of the English working class...
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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 26, 2019 11:28:30 GMT
Of course the Conservatives don't care about the working class, but it ran deeper than that. What the electorate said, in essence was "We voted for Brexit and we are absolutely determined that our democratic choice will be respected and implemented, this transcends all other considerations and if it takes voting Conservative to make you understand that, then that's what we will do".
Basically a vote for democracy over dictatorship.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 11:39:29 GMT
Of course the Conservatives don't care about the working class, but it ran deeper than that. What the electorate said, in essence was "We voted for Brexit and we are absolutely determined that our democratic choice will be respected and implemented, this transcends all other considerations and if it takes voting Conservative to make you understand that, then that's what we will do". Basically a vote for democracy over dictatorship. Without doubt that is exactly what was in the hearts of many. But I still think the over-riding factor was 'for the love of Christ lets move on'.
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Post by Jim on Dec 26, 2019 12:43:20 GMT
I think the "man on the Clapham omnibus" is a bit out of date. Lambeth: REMAIN 111,584 LEAVE 30,340 You could be right. Perhaps the expression for everyman should be updated to "The man in the flat cap with the whippet". Eyup, ow art e. Thanows I'm a remainder lad. Them posh stockbroker twats av caused a lot o trouble at tmill. Confusing my mates with lies and trolling.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Dec 26, 2019 12:59:21 GMT
If the Brexit issue was not present, Labour would have fared much better - however distasteful momentum appears. Equally, had Labour been prepared to acknowledge the enormous downward pressure on British working class wages and conditions caused by mass immigration of a workforce from post-Communist economies for whom the National Minimum Wage was a highly attractive prospect, and had they adopted a more appropriate position with regard to the negative aspects of eu membership, then the working class would not have turned away from Labour in droves. This is the nub of it of course. The problem for Labour is that over the decades, possibly starting under Blair, they have progressively gained the position that any discussion over migration conflates with racism. This is ridiculous of course, the countries from where most EU migrants come from are more 'white' than is Britain. Still, this is what they now believe, with enough certainty to jettison their core vote because of it. I suspect that if Labour wish to ever be electable again they are going to have to come to the conclusion that what Tony Blair said towards the end of his term was correct: "it's not racist to have concerns about migration".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 13:06:31 GMT
So what's next in this chess game then?
My prediction:
A forced no deal Brexit. Major recession the likes of which nobody alive has experienced.
Tories re-elected on a "better the devil you know" basis next time.
Tories select a new leader who campaigns on a "let's rejoin the EU for the sake of the economy" ticket and gets elected in the ~2029 election.
Thus keeping labour out by tactics.
That's what I reckon anyway.
Of course it's always worth remembering in all this that the wealthy Tories such as Mr Johnson will never feel any of the effects of major recession. In fact it often results in wealthy people becoming more wealthy. What's not to like?
And the great part of it is that the recession was not the Tories fault. It was the fault of the people who thought Brexit was a good idea. The common man in other words.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 14:07:15 GMT
So what's next in this chess game then? My prediction: A forced no deal Brexit. Major recession the likes of which nobody alive has experienced. Tories re-elected on a "better the devil you know" basis next time. Tories select a new leader who campaigns on a "let's rejoin the EU for the sake of the economy" ticket and gets elected in the ~2029 election. Thus keeping labour out by tactics. That's what I reckon anyway. Of course it's always worth remembering in all this that the wealthy Tories such as Mr Johnson will never feel any of the effects of major recession. In fact it often results in wealthy people becoming more wealthy. What's not to like? And the great part of it is that the recession was not the Tories fault. It was the fault of the people who thought Brexit was a good idea. The common man in other words. Do you remember I suggested you write a book? Knock that out in six months and it'll be a best-seller. We do indeed live in interesting times.
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Post by thebfg on Dec 26, 2019 14:51:44 GMT
Equally, had Labour been prepared to acknowledge the enormous downward pressure on British working class wages and conditions caused by mass immigration of a workforce from post-Communist economies for whom the National Minimum Wage was a highly attractive prospect, and had they adopted a more appropriate position with regard to the negative aspects of eu membership, then the working class would not have turned away from Labour in droves. possibly starting under Blair, they have progressively gained the position that any discussion over migration conflates with racism. This is ridiculous of course, the countries from where most EU migrants come from are more 'white' than is Britain. Still, this is what they now believe, I have always wondered how this has been accepted into our ways. I am still not sure how any white brit can ever be racist towards any fellow white European as they are the same race.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Dec 26, 2019 16:02:57 GMT
possibly starting under Blair, they have progressively gained the position that any discussion over migration conflates with racism. This is ridiculous of course, the countries from where most EU migrants come from are more 'white' than is Britain. Still, this is what they now believe, I have always wondered how this has been accepted into our ways. I am still not sure how any white brit can ever be racist towards any fellow white European as they are the same race. The discussion around racism has departed from what you'd expect, arguments based on logic and reason, as these have been closed down. Instead, we now have a status quo based on hysteria. An example of this, at a recent England football away match some idiots in the crowd made monkey noises, this resulted in front page headlines lasting several days. Meanwhile, the fan who was stabbed to death outside the ground barely made the news at all.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 16:18:11 GMT
I have always wondered how this has been accepted into our ways. I am still not sure how any white brit can ever be racist towards any fellow white European as they are the same race. The discussion around racism has departed from what you'd expect, arguments based on logic and reason, as these have been closed down. Instead, we now have a status quo based on hysteria. An example of this, at a recent England football away match some idiots in the crowd made monkey noises, this resulted in front page headlines lasting several days. Meanwhile, the fan who was stabbed to death outside the ground barely made the news at all. Could you be more specific? Because if you search 'England away match stabbing' you get more hits than you can shake a shitty stick at.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 26, 2019 16:19:36 GMT
possibly starting under Blair, they have progressively gained the position that any discussion over migration conflates with racism. This is ridiculous of course, the countries from where most EU migrants come from are more 'white' than is Britain. Still, this is what they now believe, I have always wondered how this has been accepted into our ways. I am still not sure how any white brit can ever be racist towards any fellow white European as they are the same race. Because the easiest way for the controlling class to keep the plebs in check is to imply that any objection they raise with regard to their living standards is motivated solely by objectionable personal characteristics, so pointing out that wages have declined in real terms due to mass immigration is presented as "hating foreigners".
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 16:31:22 GMT
Exactly.
And the country still vote the buggers in with a large majority.
Something wrong here.
I reckon it's all to do with the future of humans.
It's the beginning of a slow and quite complicated erosion of living standards followed by wars between ordinary people and people with money and machines.
Does anyone really believe that companies like Tesla are furthering the good qualities of humanity? They aren't. They are simply using current consumer trends to generate profits which are redirected to things like defence systems and automation.
I often think the opening scene of the Terminator may have been prescient.
2029 is too soon but it won't be long.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2019 16:46:47 GMT
I often think the opening scene of the Terminator may have been prescient. Nah, you have it all wrong. 'The Terminator' is just a re-hash of 'Frankenstein' - man makes scientific breakthrough, technology bites man in ass. Make for the trees!
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Post by Mr Stabby on Dec 26, 2019 16:56:18 GMT
I think the recent election will prove to be a permanent game-changer. Many of the constituencies which fell to the Conservatives had never been held by any party other than Labour, and even a generation ago it would have been absolutely unthinkable that anyone other than Labour would ever win them.
Now, even those who voted Labour in those constituencies will be aware that a majority of their families, friends and workmates voted Conservative this time and this will even further erode the traditional taboo about voting Tory when it comes to future elections. Unless there is some seismic change in Labour's direction I really do see them as having no chance whatsoever of winning a parliamentary majority again in my lifetime.
As I have said on many occasions, had Labour stood on a pro-Brexit platform in 2015 then they would have won that election comfortably and been in power for the last four years with every chance of retaining power in 2020.
This is all the result of telling the electorate what they should think, instead of listening when the electorate told them what they were thinking.
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