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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2020 8:42:53 GMT
Sounds like a really relaxing kind of holiday..... Somehow, this time, I am looking forwards to going back to work and sitting myself behind the steering wheel and putting cruise control on and just sitting looking at the countryside and an eye out for mooses. And to sauna next Friday evening. Been a really hectic week. And tomorrow still a load to do. Still, we have sort of enjoyed this week. And this evening a BIG SURPRISE for me - bell ringing with Mike the Boilerman!! Luckily I have always defended him / spoken up on his behalf. So... no fisticuffs in the belfry! Never met him before, but he seems alright to me. I said he should really pop over to Thunderboat as there are some really nice people here, and he has nothing to lose. Cruise Control? You what? Cruise Control??? Someone has hacked Foxy's account.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 28, 2020 9:07:35 GMT
The builders of some canal pleasure craft, however, make a practice of equipping the fuel tanks with two dip tubes instead of just the one single dip tube for the fuel feed to the engine, or sometimes, welding the steel BSP bush for the return line much too far down the side of the tank from the top. The fuel tank on Foxy's boat clearly has had either one or the other of these defects/mistakes built-in from new. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Starter battery first I think, working under the back cover as it is now raining (started around 0715) and looks set to rain all day. Water pump another 'big job'. Have you got plenty of 8"- 9" cable ties, and made up some cable end insulating sleeves out of PVC glove fingers, . . . and are you absolutely sure about battery cable disconnecting and re-connecting sequences ?
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Post by duncan on Feb 28, 2020 18:47:55 GMT
Foxy gone very quiet today, has he nipped over to Bristol to give his best regards to Greta?
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Post by JohnV on Feb 28, 2020 20:54:33 GMT
The pump will only start when the pressure in the system is less than it's preset "start" level and will only stop when it reaches it's preset "cut off" level.
If you turn a tap on a little and it takes a few moments for the pomp to start this is normal as is running on for a little after you turn the tap off
the term is hysteresis and it is to stop the pump switching on/off on/off too quickly
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Post by Telemachus on Feb 28, 2020 22:24:00 GMT
Foxy gone very quiet today, has he nipped over to Bristol to give his best regards to Greta? Been busy. All week, really. Legs aching with so much walking. Opened new Jabsco water pump lunchtime. Oh dear... the best quality you say? Made in Coronavirus Land. Fitting it dead easy, old pump clips for pipes open, after laying down lots of kitchen towel to absorb any water, new pump in place and clip the pipes into it. Then the 2 electric wires. This pump higher than the box that slid over the old Flojet pump. The loo sits on the box. We can make the box higher, but then it will not slide past the accumulator vertical pipe! So.... we can cut a piece out of the box. BUT... do we even need the accumulator any more? Jabsco claim their pumps don't need an accumulator. The marina owner wants to try without accumulator, but then the pipework will have to be sorted, and time is up for now. Holiday almost over. The pump comes on when the switch for it is turned on. Should it? Our old one didn't. Why is it pumping, and what to where? Water into the accumulator? It will stop after a few seconds. And with the switch then turned off water will run from the taps for maybe 15 seconds. When you have water running out of the tap, and then turn the tap off, the pump will not stop immediately like our old Flojet but keeps running for maybe 15 seconds, and then it will turn itself off. With pressure in the accumulator? It doesn't blow the fuse anyway, and we can hit the switch off before the pump turns itself off (if we want to, and if we are beside the control panel where the switch is located). I don't understand any of it. But it looks like we have something we can work with. Water tank filled this afternoon so can see if a shower is possible tomorrow morning. I think it’s best to have an accumulator. Pumps that say they don’t need an accumulator, tend to be problematic without one. But worth remembering that the accumulator doesn’t HAVE to be adjacent to the pump (although this is preferable) so if space is an issue you could relocate to anywhere on the cold feed, eg under the sink.
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Post by lollygagger on Feb 29, 2020 7:08:19 GMT
The accumulator comes into it's own when you run a tap slowly - it uses it's stored pressure instead of cycling the pump on and off every few seconds.
A two or multi speed pump cycles less if you don't have an accumulator but still cycles at low tap opening.
Accumulators are slightly annoying when you run a cup full and the pump decides to run for 10 seconds to recharge it, but slightly pleasing when you run a cup full from the stored accumulator pressure and the pump stays off.
I had accumulators and a single speed pump in the last boat. This one has no accumulators but a multi-speed pump. Which is better? Who knows. If you need the space, dump them? I assume you have a hot one too?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Feb 29, 2020 17:20:41 GMT
Have you got plenty of honey and plenty of money and a pea green boat? Took these snaps before we left, of the diesel pipes where they join the fuel tank. I have never examined this area of the boat before, so will have a poke around and see if those joins are really rusty or what. I'm sorry to have to say this, Ross, but the overall standard of your engine installation is appalling. Whoever did it, with their hanging Christmas decorations approach to cable and pipe runs, has built in a whole lot of latent defects which in effect turn a sound and very reliable engine into a potentially unreliable one. In addition to the siphoning problem with the fuel return to tank line, there are 2 x more glaring defects in the above photo alone; fuel feed stopcock not fitted directly into the tank (copper pipe and compression joint between tank and stopcock), and unsupported pipe runs vulnerable to both vibration and being otherwise bent and/or damaged. If the BSS Examiner was carrying a white stick and accompanied by a guide dog when he came to your boat, then all I can say is that it would probably have been better to have left it to the dog to do the examination ! The two brass fittings shown in this photo of the tank are either stud fittings [male BSPT thread on one end with olive and nut on the other] , or bulkhead fittings [olive and nut both ends], and very definitely NOT the way to make boat fuel tank connections. The only exception to that would be if suitable steel BSP fittings were welded on to the internal face of the plate before that part of the tank was welded to the shell plating, . . which would be a very unusual and not at all sensible way to go about doing the job. Is there a removable inspection lid in the top of the tank, which I assume would be the deck plating itself, or are the connections visible or even to any extent accessible internally through the filler ?
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 17:05:47 GMT
There are degrees of 'issues' with boats ... at 34 years old yours doesn't seem to be doing so bad naughtyfox. We who are not technically minded must enjoy our boating, and deal with 'stuff' the best we can, as and when it arises ... but mostly enjoy our boating Rog
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 17:49:10 GMT
There are degrees of 'issues' with boats ... at 34 years old yours doesn't seem to be doing so bad naughtyfox. We who are not technically minded must enjoy our boating, and deal with 'stuff' the best we can, as and when it arises ... but mostly enjoy our boating Rog If I were a a BSS examiner I'd have hammered Foxy on his dreadful fuel system - cobbled together load of old shite - unsupported and should fail the light manual force test at the shut off valve/leak off rail return to tank; nevermind the dangerous and needless routing over hot exhaust... It is what it is though - most bog standard boaters have to jump through the hoops set by and large at the whim of the tester.... Foxy seems to have taken my advice and kept his gob shut over who was the last bloke that gave him a big rubber stamp on his BSS ticket - for that he must be given a pat on the back 👍
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Post by Deleted on Mar 1, 2020 18:13:55 GMT
There are degrees of 'issues' with boats ... at 34 years old yours doesn't seem to be doing so bad naughtyfox . We who are not technically minded must enjoy our boating, and deal with 'stuff' the best we can, as and when it arises ... but mostly enjoy our boating Rog ........................... - for that he must be given a pat on the back 👍 I'd go along with that.
At one point I'd like to have labelled Foxy as the Nautical of TB in respect of shitty advice to others on technical advice - he seems to have changed a bit...
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 1, 2020 21:28:50 GMT
I'd go along with that.
At one point I'd like to have labelled Foxy as the Nautical of TB in respect of shitty advice to others on technical advice - he seems to have changed a bit...
Dry dock and welder all sorted out for early June, and it looks like we're having a new stern tube + prop shaft put in, bit of play in the stern tube, said the last two hull surveyors. Welder says let's get it over and done with. This should be telling you something ! How long between the two surveys, . . . and how many running hours in total did you clock up in the period between surveys, and since the second one ?
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 2, 2020 6:26:45 GMT
This should be telling you something ! How long between the two surveys, . . . and how many running hours in total did you clock up in the period between surveys, and since the second one ? These are hull surveys and not BSS inspections. One survey made just before we bought the boat at previous owner's request in Jan 2014 (or was it Dec 2013?) - he didn't know then that we would be buying the boat. He had it done selling it would be easier, I guess. We had a hull survey done in July 2016 just for the hell of it, when we were in dry dock for blacking (did blacking ourselves). We wanted to see if the durvey report from 13/14 was true - it did seem to be, similar measurements for thickness all round the boat. Survey last June (2019) as insurance company said they wanted one by 2021. They then changed their minds and said 2026. But we had already ordered the chappie and decided to have it done anyway. Similar results, nothing unexpected. Stern tube end has always had silicone around it. We slapped some more Sikaflex around it when we had some left over from doing our shower cupboard seams. No water leaks, engine room always bone dry when we get back to the boat after weeks/months. Some people have said don't bother to do anything, but this welder has suggested to get it done, and has measured the shaft, and is already ordering the parts. (bus to drive now...!) You're missing the point I was making. There were 3 x years of use between two surveys reporting a 'bit' of wear in the tailshaft and outer bearing. The fact that the second noting of a 'bit' of wear stopped short of recommending replacement tells me that 3 x years of your usage hadn't increased the tailshaft and stern bearing wear by any significant amount, . . and yet now, 1 x years worth of use on, you're proposing to replace something that on past performance will remain serviceable for at least another 2 x years. Makes no sense whichever way you look at it, . . except of course to the bloke who has talked you into paying him to fix something that ain't broke !
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Post by TonyDunkley on Mar 2, 2020 18:47:36 GMT
You're missing the point I was making. There were 3 x years of use between two surveys reporting a 'bit' of wear in the tailshaft and outer bearing. The fact that the second noting of a 'bit' of wear stopped short of recommending replacement tells me that 3 x years of your usage hadn't increased the tailshaft and stern bearing wear by any significant amount, . . and yet now, 1 x years worth of use on, you're proposing to replace something that on past performance will remain serviceable for at least another 2 x years. Makes no sense whichever way you look at it, . . except of course to the bloke who has talked you into paying him to fix something that ain't broke ! Here's what is says in the last hull survey report of July 2019: "Stern bearing: Weight testing the prop shaft found some wear movement. The prop shaft was not withdrawn for inspection and the vessel was not seen in water for an assessment of water ingress prevention through the stern tube gland. Hull integrity advisory: Monitor water ingress through the stern tube bearing. Packing material at the gland needs to be effective. Wear at the bearing was present which, dependant (sic) on usage, will in time require replacement." I try not to be blue-eyed, and think I am reasonably good at judging people's characters, and having met 'our' welder for this coming June, thought he was not a piss-taker. He has built his own boat and it is in the same marina where we are, so he probably has some understanding of stern tubes and suchlike one would think... yes, i know the one about going to a car tyres business and asking if you need you tyres for your car and they say "Of course!". I don't think our welder has much reason to do this job for us unnecessarily. We don't know how old ours is (34 years old?) so it might not be the worst idea to stick a new one in. I have read about stern tubes on eg. yachting forums & canal boat forums/articles and I have read that even new ones leak, which is why so many people put silicone around the end right at the start as a preventative measure, or even put glue on the stern tube threads. I don't know why ours had silicone on the end to start with - if I had removed that silicone, would water have come through? Perhaps! So why touch it? As I said, I slapped some more Sikaflex over that lot anyway. Engine room always dry, no drips, and I try not to tighten the greaser-thingy too much. 3 or 4 new 'black rings' were pushed into the stuffing box (?) 4.5 years ago by TW Marine's odd-jobs man, I watched him do it so know how to do it myself if ever needed. I think I have given these 2 nuts a little turn once since that job was done, you know, to squeeze the black rings a bit. I have been told the prop shaft should be able to turn freely by hand, and ours does. Having a new stern tube in might also help when it comes to selling the boat. Yes, it went 3 years quite happily between the 2016 & 2019 surveys, and after the 2019 survey at Penkridge we drove the boat to Leicester & Oxford & down the Thames to Reading and up the K&A to Newbury and in October on to Devizes and back to Newbury. But having a welder willing to do it this June, and with a dry dock just round the corner, it makes sense to be efficient. The welder is actually coming to put our 'shoe plates' on (chine edge = another term?) and do some other small work such as a spot weld for the water tank seam, the stern tube is just another extra thing. We think that after this work the boat should be pretty much good to go - although I will bear in mind our diesel pipes being a bit wonky. At least we have it all written down, we know what work was done when and all documented. Everything you've said in the above post - apart from the bit about putting Sikaflex round the outer bearing, . . which I don't even begin to understand - does nothing other than underline what I said in my earlier post. You've got a perfectly serviceable tailshaft and stern bearing which neither leaks nor has needed the packing follower tightening any more than once since the stuffing box was re-packed over 4 years ago. The condition of your sterngear is testament not only to you having kept it sufficiently well lubricated, but more significantly, that your engine/sterngear alignment must be about as good as it can possibly be. Fitting or welding in a new sterntube and replacement outer bearing bush WILL inevitably disturb that alignment. If you want to reduce the chances of a breakdown of any sort, and to improve the overall reliability of your engine installation, you should be focusing your attention on that appalling fuel system and the equally dubious electrics. Age alone doesn't degrade or wear out sterngear, . . the fact that yours could be up to 34 years old is neither here nor there, . . it's clearly in A1 serviceable condition, and apart from continuing with the same routine maintenance that has worked so well since you bought the boat, . . it should be left well alone !
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 19:12:09 GMT
Everything you've said in the above post - apart from the bit about putting Sikaflex round the outer bearing, . . which I don't even begin to understand - ! It was silicone sealant not sikaflex (sikaflex is a PU sealant not silicone). Putting a bit of silicone sealant on the threads of a stern tube when you screw it in is normal practice as I understand it. I have done this when replacing stern tubes but to be fair this was only as it was recommended by someone else. It does seem sensible. Obvious alternative being PolyTetraFluouroEthylene (from memory) tape.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 2, 2020 19:27:34 GMT
Here's what is says in the last hull survey report of July 2019: "Stern bearing: Weight testing the prop shaft found some wear movement. The prop shaft was not withdrawn for inspection and the vessel was not seen in water for an assessment of water ingress prevention through the stern tube gland. Hull integrity advisory: Monitor water ingress through the stern tube bearing. Packing material at the gland needs to be effective. Wear at the bearing was present which, dependant (sic) on usage, will in time require replacement." I try not to be blue-eyed, and think I am reasonably good at judging people's characters, and having met 'our' welder for this coming June, thought he was not a piss-taker. He has built his own boat and it is in the same marina where we are, so he probably has some understanding of stern tubes and suchlike one would think... yes, i know the one about going to a car tyres business and asking if you need you tyres for your car and they say "Of course!". I don't think our welder has much reason to do this job for us unnecessarily. We don't know how old ours is (34 years old?) so it might not be the worst idea to stick a new one in. I have read about stern tubes on eg. yachting forums & canal boat forums/articles and I have read that even new ones leak, which is why so many people put silicone around the end right at the start as a preventative measure, or even put glue on the stern tube threads. I don't know why ours had silicone on the end to start with - if I had removed that silicone, would water have come through? Perhaps! So why touch it? As I said, I slapped some more Sikaflex over that lot anyway. Engine room always dry, no drips, and I try not to tighten the greaser-thingy too much. 3 or 4 new 'black rings' were pushed into the stuffing box (?) 4.5 years ago by TW Marine's odd-jobs man, I watched him do it so know how to do it myself if ever needed. I think I have given these 2 nuts a little turn once since that job was done, you know, to squeeze the black rings a bit. I have been told the prop shaft should be able to turn freely by hand, and ours does. Having a new stern tube in might also help when it comes to selling the boat. Yes, it went 3 years quite happily between the 2016 & 2019 surveys, and after the 2019 survey at Penkridge we drove the boat to Leicester & Oxford & down the Thames to Reading and up the K&A to Newbury and in October on to Devizes and back to Newbury. But having a welder willing to do it this June, and with a dry dock just round the corner, it makes sense to be efficient. The welder is actually coming to put our 'shoe plates' on (chine edge = another term?) and do some other small work such as a spot weld for the water tank seam, the stern tube is just another extra thing. We think that after this work the boat should be pretty much good to go - although I will bear in mind our diesel pipes being a bit wonky. At least we have it all written down, we know what work was done when and all documented. Everything you've said in the above post - apart from the bit about putting Sikaflex round the outer bearing, . . which I don't even begin to understand - does nothing other than underline what I said in my earlier post. You've got a perfectly serviceable tailshaft and stern bearing which neither leaks nor has needed the packing follower tightening any more than once since the stuffing box was re-packed over 4 years ago. The condition of your sterngear is testament not only to you having kept it sufficiently well lubricated, but more significantly, that your engine/sterngear alignment must be about as good as it can possibly be. Fitting or welding in a new sterntube and replacement outer bearing bush WILL inevitably disturb that alignment. If you want to reduce the chances of a breakdown of any sort, and to improve the overall reliability of your engine installation, you should be focusing your attention on that appalling fuel system and the equally dubious electrics. Age alone doesn't degrade or wear out sterngear, . . the fact that yours could be up to 34 years old is neither here nor there, . . it's clearly in A1 serviceable condition, and apart from continuing with the same routine maintenance that has worked so well since you bought the boat, . . it should be left well alone ! I’ll quote Tony and tag naughtyfox In the vain hope Ross takes notice of all that Tony has written - saves me repeating it... Foxy, we had a new prop shaft at 45 years old due to it running out of true - odds are high it had a good whack at some point in its life,(25 years of which were spent in hire on the broads) The sterngland packing and through hull shaftlog is still original (now 54 yers old) Take Tony’s advice - it’s free and will save you money and hassle - You must admit to yourself you are a marina owners dream, as good a walking open wallet/blank cheque as you will get. Have a little think about what has been about your fuel system Tony and I are in complete agreement it’s shite - @someboater has also pointed out its failings to you - no coincidence.....
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