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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 11:35:22 GMT
I knew a chap (now deceased) who in his working life managed coastal freighters between Hull and Holland, and who was also a keen yachtsman of the old school. He was Mr Play-It-Safe - he absolutely refused to leave port in his sailboat if the wind was so much as gusting a five (I know some who regard this as optimal). I heard he once spent nearly four months in Boulogne as a result. He also died safely in bed.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 11:37:32 GMT
Reading that got my heartbeat up a bit.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 11:40:02 GMT
I still view a narrow boat as not particularly well suited to it. And neither is it but in fair conditions a narrowboat has no issues. I once saw a picture of several fully laden motors servicing freight vessels of some sort in the pool. The freeboard was very minimal but all looked safe enough.
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Post by JohnV on Apr 3, 2020 11:41:10 GMT
I think the problems for a narrowboat are always compounded when there are a lot commercial craft around, especially when they are ones that kick up a lot of wake
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 11:43:38 GMT
I still view a narrow boat as not particularly well suited to it. And neither is it but in fair conditions a narrowboat has no issues. I once saw a picture of several fully laden motors servicing freight vessels of some sort in the pool. The freeboard was very minimal but all looked safe enough. The Harland and Wolff built narrow boats have particularly high bows partly because they were to be used on the tidal Thames. I was thinking of more modern narrow boats which often don't have this feature. It would be quite interesting from a technical point of view to know if the small Woolwich boats were routinely used on the tideway or if that was a job for the larger "town class" vessels.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 11:45:41 GMT
I think the problems for a narrowboat are always compounded when there are a lot commercial craft around, especially when they are ones that kick up a lot of wake Commercials now are not the same as they were. In the days of trade on the River I suspect much more use was made of the tide. Take advantage of it rather than burning diesel to make massive waves punching it. Different place these days. Today it is like a mill pond because all of the passenger boats have stopped but normally it is pretty rough in central areas. Cory rubbish tugs still going thankfully and a few other contractors here and there . In half an hour on our park bench with the kids earlier on (11am) we saw just 4 boats. Police PLA launch Fire boat on exercises Hurricane Clipper passenger boat doing anchoring drill training Nothing else. Oh and I did see a contractor tug moving down river I think they have some essential works related to the tideway sewer tunnel. Very quiet indeed. Nothing else
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Post by JohnV on Apr 3, 2020 12:16:09 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 12:16:55 GMT
The day was ending in a serenity of still and exquisite brilliance. The water shone pacifically; the sky, without a speck, was a benign immensity of unstained light; the very mist on the Essex marsh was like a gauzy and radiant fabric, hung from the wooded rises inland, and draping the low shores in diaphanous folds. Only the gloom to the west, brooding over the upper reaches, became more sombre every minute, as if angered by the approach of the sun.
And at last, in its curved and imperceptible fall, the sun sank low, and from glowing white changed to a dull red without rays and without heat, as if about to go out suddenly, stricken to death by the touch of that gloom brooding over a crowd of men. Forthwith a change came over the waters, and the serenity became less brilliant but more profound. The old river in its broad reach rested unruffled at the decline of day, after ages of good service done to the race that peopled its banks, spread out in the tranquil dignity of a waterway leading to the uttermost ends of the earth.
We looked at the venerable stream not in the vivid flush of a short day that comes and departs for ever, but in the august light of abiding memories. And indeed nothing is easier for a man who has, as the phrase goes, ‘followed the sea’ with reverence and affection, that to evoke the great spirit of the past upon the lower reaches of the Thames. The tidal current runs to and fro in its unceasing service, crowded with memories of men and ships it had borne to the rest of home or to the battles of the sea. It had known and served all the men of whom the nation is proud, from Sir Francis Drake to Sir John Franklin, knights all, titled and untitled—the great knights-errant of the sea. It had borne all the ships whose names are like jewels flashing in the night of time, from the GOLDEN HIND returning with her rotund flanks full of treasure, to be visited by the Queen’s Highness and thus pass out of the gigantic tale, to the EREBUS and TERROR, bound on other conquests— and that never returned. It had known the ships and the men. They had sailed from Deptford, from Greenwich, from Erith— the adventurers and the settlers; kings’ ships and the ships of men on ‘Change; captains, admirals, the dark ‘interlopers’ of the Eastern trade, and the commissioned ‘generals’ of East India fleets. Hunters for gold or pursuers of fame, they all had gone out on that stream, bearing the sword, and often the torch, messengers of the might within the land, bearers of a spark from the sacred fire. What greatness had not floated on the ebb of that river into the mystery of an unknown earth! … The dreams of men, the seed of commonwealths, the germs of empires.
The sun set; the dusk fell on the stream, and lights began to appear along the shore. The Chapman light-house, a three-legged thing erect on a mud-flat, shone strongly. Lights of ships moved in the fairway—a great stir of lights going up and going down. And farther west on the upper reaches the place of the monstrous town was still marked ominously on the sky, a brooding gloom in sunshine, a lurid glare under the stars.
‘And this also,’ said Marlow suddenly, ‘has been one of the dark places of the earth.’
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 12:24:18 GMT
We see that regularly and the other Cory boats. Seriously powerful pieces of equipment those are ! That orange bit around the top of the wheelhouse is what I am doing with the toy trawler. Very effective for visibility in the distance.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 3, 2020 12:39:02 GMT
Whereas most sea going boats will tend to have white hulls (mine excluded but I have compensated by having orange in the places where tugs have orange) narrow boats very rarely do so visibility from larger boats is more problematic leading to a general increase in the probability of collisions. The reasoning behind that statement ignores the Colregs and the fact that the smaller vessels are under an obligation not to 'impede' the passage of larger vessels which owing to constraints on manoeuverability imposed by size, draught and rate of turn cannot alter course to avoid smaller craft occupying parts of the navigation channel where they've no business to be, . . something which was in fact the primary cause of the "Bowbelle'' running down and sinking the "Marchioness".
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 12:50:08 GMT
There was a narrow boat impacted from astern by a poorly helmed large passenger cruiser a few years ago. The narrow boat was in the correct part of the channel outward bound but the commercial came up behind them and apparently did not notice the narrow boat.
Interesting you mention the Marchioness.
The basic problem there was lookouts on both vessels and the previous modification of the Marchioness to have an extra cabin on top, where there was originally a deck, which as well as raising the centre of gravity also impeded the skipper's view astern. In order to see astern the skipper had to leave the helm.
Marchioness was one of the reasons AIS was brought in.
Plus it was night time. Lots of lights around to confuse people.
I don't remember the problem of Marchioness being in the "wrong place" in terms of navigating and keeping out of the way of larger commercials on that evening.
I'll have to have another read of the MAIB report. It's been ages since I read it.
It's a very good report.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 13:02:20 GMT
Whereas most sea going boats will tend to have white hulls (mine excluded but I have compensated by having orange in the places where tugs have orange) narrow boats very rarely do so visibility from larger boats is more problematic leading to a general increase in the probability of collisions. ...smaller craft occupying parts of the navigation channel where they've no business to be... Oh really? I thought they had every right to be there with, as you state, due consideration given to issues such as vessels constrained by draught, not under command, etc. COLREGS make no distinction between commercial and pleasure vessels nor do they give one vessel "right of way" over another and are clear that the stand on vessel must also take action if the action of the give way vessel alone is not sufficient to prevent a collision (or if the give way vessel takes no action).
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 13:07:46 GMT
There was a narrow boat impacted from astern by a poorly helmed large passenger cruiser a few years ago. The narrow boat was in the correct part of the channel outward bound but the commercial came up behind them and apparently did not notice the narrow boat. Interesting you mention the Marchioness. The basic problem there was lookouts on both vessels and the previous modification of the Marchioness to have an extra cabin on top, where there was originally a deck, which as well as raising the centre of gravity also impeded the skipper's view astern. In order to see astern the skipper had to leave the helm. Marchioness was one of the reasons AIS was brought in. Plus it was night time. Lots of lights around to confuse people. I don't remember the problem of Marchioness being in the "wrong place" in terms of navigating and keeping out of the way of larger commercials on that evening. I'll have to have another read of the MAIB report. It's been ages since I read it. It's a very good report. And if the circumstances were exactly as you describe, the narrowboat would have been the 'stand-on' vessel and the responsibility to take evasive action would have rested with the overtaking vessel astern.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 13:11:15 GMT
The story was that they didn't see the narrow boat.
I'm not sure if there was an MAIB report on that particular incident but I saw the boat after it was towed into Limehouse by the PLA fire boat and the cruiser stern rail was completely wrecked and tiller bent right over.
Lady on the narrow boat got inside before the collision occurred.
On one of my trips down the tideway in a fairly low profile boat (40x9ft canal boat about 6ft off the water painted green and black) outward bound with the ebb tide I got into a bit of a situation with one of the large trip boats who seemed to want to push me out into the centre of the channel as they were ferry gliding across to their mooring. It was near Waterloo bridge. Lots of bridges around there increasing the hazard. I held my course and did the single blast of the horn "I am keeping to my starboard" and they succeeded in not hitting me. Some gesticulating from the crew but no incident. They just assumed I would alter course and put myself in more danger.
PLA boat came over and had a word with me afterwards and said why did I not have a radio. Boat under 43ft = no radio required. They advised get a radio I asked them if I did the right thing in the situation they said "yes, definitely, you were in the right".
At the time the choice was either be hit by the boat or do a rapid green to green passage, which if something had gone wrong would have been very unwise.
If in doubt hold course. A glancing blow off the bow of another boat is always going to be a better option than ending up sideways in front of it...
ETA we're not talking large ships. The city cruises boats, which are the ones which cause all the problems, are quite large and wide passenger cruisers (short rides no accomodation).
If it is large ships then you keep well out of the way most sensible thing to do is use the depth sounder to keep yourself in a bit they can't get to due to their draught.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 13:37:50 GMT
The story was that they didn't see the narrow boat. I'm not sure if there was an MAIB report on that particular incident but I saw the boat after it was towed into Limehouse by the PLA fire boat and the cruiser stern rail was completely wrecked and tiller bent right over. Lady on the narrow boat got inside before the collision occurred. On one of my trips down the tideway in a fairly low profile boat (40x9ft canal boat about 6ft off the water painted green and black) outward bound with the ebb tide I got into a bit of a situation with one of the large trip boats who seemed to want to push me out into the centre of the channel as they were ferry gliding across to their mooring. It was near Waterloo bridge. Lots of bridges around there increasing the hazard. I held my course and did the single blast of the horn "I am keeping to my starboard" and they succeeded in not hitting me. Some gesticulating from the crew but no incident. They just assumed I would alter course and put myself in more danger. PLA boat came over and had a word with me afterwards and said why did I not have a radio. Boat under 43ft = no radio required. They advised get a radio I asked them if I did the right thing in the situation they said "yes, definitely, you were in the right". At the time the choice was either be hit by the boat or do a rapid green to green passage, which if something had gone wrong would have been very unwise. If in doubt hold course. A glancing blow off the bow of another boat is always going to be a better option than ending up sideways in front of it... ETA we're not talking large ships. The city cruises boats, which are the ones which cause all the problems, are quite large and wide passenger cruisers (short rides no accomodation). If it is large ships then you keep well out of the way most sensible thing to do is use the depth sounder to keep yourself in a bit they can't get to due to their draught. Obviously they didn't see it. But the narrowboat skipper also failed to react - at some point it would have been obvious a collision was imminent and hiding in the cabin doesn't really cover it. Similarly, you were 'in the right' but ending up sunk may not be a great deal of consolation. Every situation is different though, the way you describe it sounds like you kept a cool head. Your final para seems to be covered by the 'constrained by draught' rule, but in any case staying just to the outside of a lateral mark in a small boat with shallow draught is never a wholly stupid course to follow.
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