Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 3, 2020 21:20:57 GMT
That is what my wife used to say! Must of made you very proud huh? So are you going to name names? Rude posters intrigue me. π I need some sleep, stop bugging me.... (I never said that to the wife, honest)
We would need ato have a long theoretical discussion about the word 'rude' first.
Time for sleep.
|
|
|
Post by perkwunos on Apr 3, 2020 21:25:09 GMT
I think the sheep is fox's sock puppet...
|
|
|
Post by perkwunos on Apr 3, 2020 21:25:35 GMT
Or one of them.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Apr 3, 2020 21:30:25 GMT
nope ......... Ross is ....... Ross ..... impossible to hide that style
|
|
|
Post by Andyberg on Apr 3, 2020 21:32:32 GMT
nope ......... Ross is ....... Ross ..... impossible to hide that style And far too dumb to do anything remotely technical like registering a βsock puppetβ on an internet forumπ
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Apr 3, 2020 21:35:53 GMT
nope ......... Ross is ....... Ross ..... impossible to hide that style And far too dumb to do anything remotely technical like registering a βsock puppetβ on an internet forumπ I wouldn't be so sure of that ............. now me
|
|
|
Post by patty on Apr 4, 2020 5:59:41 GMT
nope ......... Ross is ....... Ross ..... impossible to hide that style And far too dumb to do anything remotely technical like registering a βsock puppetβ on an internet forumπ It would interfere with his post count........
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 7:06:12 GMT
Yes, . . really !!Β Β A large commercial vessel having to follow a precise line in a narrow deep water channel and gaining on pleasure craft dawdling along directly in their path can never be sure that they've been seen and that the smaller vessels will get out of the way in good time. Result, . . the large commercial, more often than not, is forced to reduce speed to be certain of avoiding running the pleasure craft down, . . or in other words is 'impeded' by the smaller vessel.Β Β As previously stated, no vessel has at any time a 'right of way' over any other. The situation may be very annoying for the faster vessel closing astern, and quite possibly dangerous for the vessel ahead, but does not mean the stand-on vessel has any less 'right' to be on the water as you assert. There probably are other questions worth asking, such as those surrounding competence and why it is that a completely inexperienced and unqualified helmsman can be on a commercial waterway in the first place, but these are wholly separate issues. Anyway lets do something more constructive than bickering. Assume that a vessel constrained by draught is approaching a smaller slower vessel from astern, and the smaller vessel is aware of the need to make room for the larger vessel. Which course should it follow? Before modifications After modifications Asking for trouble. Takes away the skipper's rear view completely. Note in the top picture, which is indeed the same boat, the wheel is further back and in an open area as is the original design of the Salters steamers giving the skipper a convenient all round view without having to move from helm at all. Sight lines may be obscured a little by passengers but he would certainly be able to see a large vessel behind. In the modified arrangement the skipper has to walk away from the helm to the side door and look out down the side of the boat. To get full visibility he would have to do that on both sides which just won't happen on a regular basis.
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 4, 2020 9:55:10 GMT
Yes, . . really !! A large commercial vessel having to follow a precise line in a narrow deep water channel and gaining on pleasure craft dawdling along directly in their path can never be sure that they've been seen and that the smaller vessels will get out of the way in good time. Result, . . the large commercial, more often than not, is forced to reduce speed to be certain of avoiding running the pleasure craft down, . . or in other words is 'impeded' by the smaller vessel. As previously stated, no vessel has at any time a 'right of way' over any other. The situation may be very annoying for the faster vessel closing astern, and quite possibly dangerous for the vessel ahead, but does not mean the stand-on vessel has any less 'right' to be on the water as you assert. There probably are other questions worth asking, such as those surrounding competence and why it is that a completely inexperienced and unqualified helmsman can be on a commercial waterway in the first place, but these are wholly separate issues.
Your response serves well to illustrate one of the most common misconceptions that exist with regard to the application of the Colregs at sea as opposed to their practical application in close-quarter situations within the confines of a commercial river waterway. Your perception that a large commercial vessel, close to and gaining rapidly on a smaller and slower moving vessel occupying the line in the deepwater channel that the large commercial has no option but to follow itself, finds the presence of the smaller slower moving vessel "annoying" could not be further from the reality. The reality is that the rudder of any large single screw commercial vessel displacing much more than around 150-200 tons becomes totally ineffective for an alarmingly long time following anything other than gradual and progressive reductions of main engine RPM, and that at very low speeds the rudder remains ineffective without short bursts of relatively high RPM ahead power/propulsion. Anyone at the wheel of any such vessel gaining rapidly on a small vessel obstructing a narrow deepwater channel won't be 'annoyed' by it's presence, . . they'll be too busy worrying about the prospect of having to lose too much way too quickly, and with it virtually all the larger vessel's directional control, in order to avoid running down or colliding with the smaller vessel if it doesn't take appropriate avoiding action in time.
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 4, 2020 10:16:40 GMT
Yes, . . really !! A large commercial vessel having to follow a precise line in a narrow deep water channel and gaining on pleasure craft dawdling along directly in their path can never be sure that they've been seen and that the smaller vessels will get out of the way in good time. Result, . . the large commercial, more often than not, is forced to reduce speed to be certain of avoiding running the pleasure craft down, . . or in other words is 'impeded' by the smaller vessel. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Assume that a vessel constrained by draught is approaching a smaller slower vessel from astern, and the smaller vessel is aware of the need to make room for the larger vessel. Which course should it follow? Presuming that you're asking the question with regard to the two bridges illustrated, . . . inbound or outbound ?
|
|
|
Post by Jim on Apr 4, 2020 10:18:34 GMT
. . .Β Β . . .Β Β . . .Β Β . .Β Β . .Β Β .Β Β Assume that a vessel constrained by draught is approaching a smaller slower vessel from astern, and the smaller vessel is aware of the need to make room for the larger vessel. Which course should it follow? Inbound or outbound ? Clue, is that Big Ben off the port side.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Apr 4, 2020 10:43:23 GMT
Clue, is that Big Ben off the port side. I take it you have not been to Londonistan
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Apr 4, 2020 10:59:20 GMT
As previously stated, no vessel has at any time a 'right of way' over any other. The situation may be very annoying for the faster vessel closing astern, and quite possibly dangerous for the vessel ahead, but does not mean the stand-on vessel has any less 'right' to be on the water as you assert. There probably are other questions worth asking, such as those surrounding competence and why it is that a completely inexperienced and unqualified helmsman can be on a commercial waterway in the first place, but these are wholly separate issues. Anyway lets do something more constructive than bickering. Assume that a vessel constrained by draught is approaching a smaller slower vessel from astern, and the smaller vessel is aware of the need to make room for the larger vessel. Which course should it follow? After modifications Asking for trouble. Takes away the skipper's rear view completely. In the modified arrangement the skipper has to walk away from the helm to the side door and look out down the side of the boat. To get full visibility he would have to do that on both sides which just won't happen on a regular basis. The lack of astern visibility from the wheelhouse of 'Marchioness' was all the more reason for not to be dawdling along, in the dark, smack in the middle of the deepwater channel on the line that would have to be taken by any outbound ship or commercial between Southwark and Cannon Street Railway Bridges. On the night of the sinking, a sister ship to 'Marchioness', and another ex-Salter's steamer, the 'Hurlingham', with equally bad rearward visibility, was also out on a virtually identical schedule and was overtaken, safely and without incident, by the 'Bowbelle' just moments before hitting the 'Marchioness'. What made for the two vastly different outcomes of two closely consecutive overtakes by the 'Bowbelle' ? The 'Marchioness' was travelling at around half the speed of the 'Bowbelle' in a part of the river where it should NOT have been, . . and the 'Hurlingham', making about the same speed as the 'Marchioness', WAS where it should have been and didn't use the central spans of either Southwark or Cannon Street Bridges.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 11:02:24 GMT
Fair enough I'm sure you are right. As you know I will always bow to your superior knowledge on this subject.
Good point about the Hurlingham.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 4, 2020 11:07:47 GMT
. . . . . . . . . . . . . . Assume that a vessel constrained by draught is approaching a smaller slower vessel from astern, and the smaller vessel is aware of the need to make room for the larger vessel. Which course should it follow? Presuming that you're asking the question with regard to the two bridges illustrated, . . . inbound or outbound ? Outbound
|
|