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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:03:55 GMT
Hi folks
I'm going to apologise in advance, because this is a bit of a dumb question, and probably a dull one too...
But I wonder if I can ask for your thoughts about how you heat water, and whether its worth trying to reduce the amount of engine running hours that you might spend on battery charging or producing hot water- maybe by having alternative methods for doing those two things?
I'll assume a pattern of say one day's cruising then maybe stopping for two or three days, then cruise again, etc etc. It might not end up being that way of course- if I find a really nice spot I might moor for the full 14 days before moving again.
So if you stay moored for 3 or more days, am I right in thinking you might be running the engine for 3 or four hours a day just to get batteries topped up and heat some water for a shower, dishes, the occasional clothes wash maybe...? And that in the later stages of the charging, the batteries take a much lower current from the charger?
(i.e. a less powerful source could be used for that part of the charging?)
I'm guessing that even 600-700 watts or more of solar is not going to generate enough to fully recharge your batteries from say heating up water for a shower plus general usage, right? Except maybe in summer? So in the colder months, you either use your engine or you use a genny, right? No other options?
So this is one of the scenarios I was wondering about: it's late summer, you're not cruising so the engine is not running, but you want to get a shower. Would you consider using the immersion heater, assuming there was one, to save running the engine?
And if the immersion heater is the common 1.2 kw type that I've seen on a lot of 10 year old boats, what kind of inverter would it need? Would 2kw normally be enough to power it?
And if you use the inverter to heat water, would you then use a genny to recharge the batteries? If its evening you might not want to run engines of any sort I guess?
So in the evenings whats the best way to get hot water to wash a few dishes say, or maybe hand wash a few clothes?
Also, instead of running the batteries down by plugging in the immersion heater, would it make more sense to run a generator and plug the immersion heater into that?
I ask because using the generator to directly power the immersion heater would mean one less recharging cycle needed for the batteries, and over a couple of years that sounds as if it could save a fair bit of wear on the batteries?
As I say, this is just me sort of ruminating on how you manage the day to day heating of water, do you vary methods, and do you worry about putting hundreds and hundreds of running hours onto the engine to get your hot water, or charge you batteries?
If you do use a genny for some of that, how often? and is it pain getting it out onto the towpath or wherever, plugging it into the charger- and if you use it a lot, is getting the petrol a nuisance?
Asking for a friend. Honest guv.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Apr 17, 2020 20:11:37 GMT
So this is one of the scenarios I was wondering about: it's late summer, you're not cruising so the engine is not running, but you want to get a shower. Would you consider using the immersion heater, assuming there was one, to save running the engine? And if the immersion heater is the common 1.2 kw type that I've seen on a lot of 10 year old boats, what kind of inverter would it need? Would 2kw normally be enough to power it? You couldn't run a 1.2 kw immersion heater without either a shoreline or having the engine running. If you tried to run it from the batteries then they would be flat in like ten minutes. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:15:42 GMT
So this is one of the scenarios I was wondering about: it's late summer, you're not cruising so the engine is not running, but you want to get a shower. Would you consider using the immersion heater, assuming there was one, to save running the engine? And if the immersion heater is the common 1.2 kw type that I've seen on a lot of 10 year old boats, what kind of inverter would it need? Would 2kw normally be enough to power it? You couldn't run a 1.2 kw immersion heater without either a shoreline or having the engine running. If you tried to run it from the batteries then they would be flat in like ten minutes. Thanks Mr S, thats cleared hat one up for me. Shoreline's not going to be available, so if I did want to reduce engine usage, would the immersion heater run ok on say a 2kw suitcase genny? I dont fancy the palaver every day of setting up the genny and connecting it up the charger, maybe covering it if there's a bit of rain.... I can see why people just go with running the engine. |
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Post by Telemachus on Apr 17, 2020 20:16:23 GMT
Our boat has 3 ways to heat water. The engine, an immersion heater, and a Mikuni (that also runs some radiators). Definitely a bad idea to operate the immersion heater from batteries, because far more engine running is needed to recharge the batteries than it would have taken to heat the water with a combination of engine running to directly heat the water, and engine running to power the immersion heater. The latter presumes a decent alternator or Travelpower, of course. We can power the immersion either using electricity generated by the alternator (175A) or the Travelpower (3.5kw). If you are buying an old boat, it is unlikely that the alternator can produce that much power.
Live aboard folk often have instantaneous gas water heaters, Morco, Paloma, Rinnai etc
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:23:56 GMT
You couldn't run a 1.2 kw immersion heater without either a shoreline or having the engine running. If you tried to run it from the batteries then they would be flat in like ten minutes. Thanks Mr S, thats cleared hat one up for me. Shoreline's not going to be available, so if I did want to reduce engine usage, would the immersion heater run ok on say a 2kw suitcase genny? I dont fancy the palaver every day of setting up the genny and connecting it up the charger, maybe covering it if there's a bit of rain....
I can see why people just go with running the engine.That is what I do.
Maybe will need to use the genny tomorrow depending on what has gone wrong with engine this evening - hopefully just the starter battery/water pump belt snapped - was pissing down so decided to investigate in the morning. Genny is a good back up.
Water can be heated by diesel heater such as an eberspacher to save running engine, or a direct gas water heater. More knowledgeable people will explain the best/pitfalls etc if you ask.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 17, 2020 20:28:35 GMT
You couldn't run a 1.2 kw immersion heater without either a shoreline or having the engine running. If you tried to run it from the batteries then they would be flat in like ten minutes. I can see why people just go with running the engine. We have a Morco instant water heater. We don't need the engine to run it! Two 13kg gas bottles in the nose of the boat (one at a time, one is just a spare). Electricity is needed for the water pump and shower pump, and that comes through the batteries. We lived off the batteries for 5 weeks in Gargrave Summer 2018, the only trip we made in those 5 weeks was to Skipton & back, otherwise we didn't have the engine running at all. May we ask how old you are? I'm thinking you might be like the Monty Python parrot before you get round to getting a boat. Life is short (and shorter for old people) - get a move on  |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:33:39 GMT
Our boat has 3 ways to heat water. The engine, an immersion heater, and a Mikuni (that also runs some radiators). Definitely a bad idea to operate the immersion heater from batteries, because far more engine running is needed to recharge the batteries than it would have taken to heat the water with a combination of engine running to directly heat the water, and engine running to power the immersion heater. The latter presumes a decent alternator or Travelpower, of course. We can power the immersion either using electricity generated by the alternator (175A) or the Travelpower (3.5kw). If you are buying an old boat, it is unlikely that the alternator can produce that much power. Live aboard folk often have instantaneous gas water heaters, Morco, Paloma, Rinnai etc Thanks Telemachus, I wasn't clear that the immersion heater would totally cane the batteries, so that's one daft experiment I wont end up trying. I'd love a boat with diesel central heating tbh, as an extra option for hot water and for the odd time I need heat for just an hour or so, without having to build a fire. But I'm not seeing diesel CH on most boats; I guess because its pretty expensive. So what sort of generator would one need to power an immersion heater, if one wanted to save running the engine? And can you still buy a travelpower? |
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Post by lollygagger on Apr 17, 2020 20:34:35 GMT
Travelpower is a handy bit of kit to have rather than messing with a generator for 240v (IMO). Compact and does what it says on the tin.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:37:11 GMT
There is something to be said for an instant water heater like a Morco. Yes they use a fair bit of gas but they are very effective units.
That plus a calorifier off the engine / diesel heater, with correct valve system, works nicely.
It basically means you can have as much hot water as you like when you want it. If you like hot water availability then this is actually quite a valuable asset.
You do have to be careful with design because an instant water heater raises the temperature of the input water by X degrees. So if you had a calorifier which then fed the water heater you can end up with boiling water coming out of taps. Not very nice in the shower.
The narrow boat I previously lived on for 12 years had a Paloma and engine calorifier. At first I did have some problems but as I was cruising most days (and am a dedicated soap dodger) I never really used the Paloma. More recently I have been stuck on a mooring with woman and children in a barge and our main water heating is a Morco. We do have electric etc but still the Morco is the best solution. In demand. This may be related to having a woman about.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:41:32 GMT
I can see why people just go with running the engine. We have a Morco instant water heater. We don't need the engine to run it! Two 13kg gas bottles in the nose of the boat (one at a time, one is just a spare). Electricity is needed for the water pump and shower pump, and that comes through the batteries. We lived off the batteries for 5 weeks in Gargrave Summer 2018, the only trip we made in those 5 weeks was to Skipton & back, otherwise we didn't have the engine running at all. May we ask how old you are? I'm thinking you might be like the Monty Python parrot before you get round to getting a boat. Life is short (and shorter for old people) - get a move on I'm old enough to retire Mr Fox, although a bit early. And I promise I am getting a move on. I'm formally retiring on 31 July, and I think I'll have enough to buy a decent boat by mid-August. I wish it were sooner, tbh, but the NHS take months to get these things sorted out. Although to be fair, they are generous, and I'm bloody lucky they took so much off me over the years, because I'd never have stashed enough away if they hadn't done it for me. I remember being annoyed many years ago because they were taking about 10% of my wages as pension contributions and it was all compulsory, but I'm bloody thankful for it now that time has come that I need it. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:42:39 GMT
Another male nurse?
We'll have to mullet over.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:44:48 GMT
There is something to be said for an instant water heater like a Morco. Yes they use a fair bit of gas but they are very effective units. That plus a calorifier off the engine / diesel heater, with correct valve system, works nicely. It basically means you can have as much hot water as you like when you want it. If you like hot water availability then this is actually quite a valuable asset. You do have to be careful with design because an instant water heater raises the temperature of the input water by X degrees. So if you had a calorifier which then fed the water heater you can end up with boiling water coming out of taps. Not very nice in the shower. The narrow boat I previously lived on for 12 years had a Paloma and engine calorifier. At first I did have some problems but as it was cruising most days I never really used the Paloma. More recently I have been stuck on a mooring with woman and children in a barge and our main water heating is a Morco. We do have electric etc but still the Morco is the best solution. In demand. This may be related to having a woman about. If the boat I get has gas, I'll see if I can get a morco heater for the hot water. But do the Safety inspectors insist that these have an external flue or vent now? I'm thinking thats just more expense and trouble, but still worth it. What i'm picking up is that its a good idea to have a contigency method for things like hot water in case one fails |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:47:12 GMT
Apparently the BS situation is that if the instant water heater only goes to one faucet then it doesn't need an external flue. More than one outlet then it needs a flue and a draught diverter.
This is technically interesting if you only want on-demand hot water for the shower.
This is what I was told by someone it could be wrong. My Morco had a flue on it and the correct external terminal.
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Post by naughtyfox on Apr 17, 2020 20:51:05 GMT
We have a Morco instant water heater. We don't need the engine to run it! Two 13kg gas bottles in the nose of the boat (one at a time, one is just a spare). Electricity is needed for the water pump and shower pump, and that comes through the batteries. We lived off the batteries for 5 weeks in Gargrave Summer 2018, the only trip we made in those 5 weeks was to Skipton & back, otherwise we didn't have the engine running at all. May we ask how old you are? I'm thinking you might be like the Monty Python parrot before you get round to getting a boat. Life is short (and shorter for old people) - get a move on I'm old enough to retire Mr Fox, although a bit early. OK - good to see you have the chance to enjoy boating for 20 years or so. And good to see you researching. We've had our boat 6 years now and am still learning - I still haven't had time to have a good look at what we bought, we have been too busy travelling round the country with it. If of any interest, I wrote a guide on how to use our boat, a guide for visitors - might be some tips for you in it? Send a PM (personal message) if you're interested, and I'll send you my e-mail and the guide as a WORD file. |
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Post by Deleted on Apr 17, 2020 20:53:01 GMT
Another male nurse? We'll have to mullet over. No Mr M, I was a lab rat. I worked in testing and blood typing, and for the last 15 years, the ever-so-dull IT department. The nearest I got to the patients was working on samples of their blood- but I have to say, the way things are now I'm fine with that. The risks being run by the front line staff in some places are pretty horrendous, and when you think about the risks, and what they get paid, I take my hat off to every single one of them. |
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