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Post by IainS on May 9, 2020 20:32:08 GMT
Iceland have had a good idea, psychological test for anyone who wants to be a leader, weed out the sociopaths and general self centred power hungry nutters. This would be the Iceland who owes everyone else a whole bunch of money? With a population who voted not to pay the debt? That would be the Iceland that let the banks go bust, compensated depositors, prosecuted bankers, and whose economy recovered faster than most ... |
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Post by Deleted on May 9, 2020 21:18:29 GMT
I’m with Rog on this one. Party politics has its downsides but non-party governments would never get anything done. Rarely is an issue binary, and so parliament would get 100 different options to vote for none of which would get a majority. This is why party politics was invented. The lesser of 2 evils unless your utopia is an entirely dysfunctional government. Parliament already have All Party Palimentary Groups to debate different issues. If the members of those groups were no longer obliged to push the party line because they are independent, they might agree on policy more easily as they don't have to consider the party line and just say what they really think. The final vote on any policy is binary anyway, yay or nay, eventually a decision has to be made whether it's a non partisan government or not. Anyway, I'm not really sure, that's why I started this thread to see what people thought. Politics is not my strong point, it's just that I don't think either of the 2 main parties truly represent the public anymore. They seem to be more interested in their careers than the wishes of the public these days. Democracy relies on the public having a decent choice, it feels like we don't anymore. Labour seem to have completely lost the plot and the Tories seem to be running away with it. It didn't help that Labour polarised itself with remain (well refused a no deal exit in their manifesto). The centre parties are almost non existent and smaller parties like the Green Party struggle to find anyone strong enough to be a PM. So we have had pretty much a binary parliament for years (Labour and Tory) except that it's now becoming a single party government. BTW, if we had a non partisan government we wouldn't have a position where a party like DUP could tip the overall power of government? We're all doomed I tell you.  |
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Post by lollygagger on May 10, 2020 5:24:08 GMT
Mr Bassplayer, we'd end up in exactly the same situation but having pushed party politics underground we'd have even less idea WTF anyone actually stood for. It's bad enough already.
As to getting less done, if that actually was the result I'd be all in favour. A lot of party political legislation is doing/undoing/thwarting the oppositions legislation at great expense to us all. You only have to look at the costly changes in education policy (random example) each time there is a change in the colour of government.
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Post by JohnV on May 10, 2020 5:49:22 GMT
^^^^^^^^ this in spades
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 6:33:59 GMT
Mr Bassplayer, we'd end up in exactly the same situation but having pushed party politics underground we'd have even less idea WTF anyone actually stood for. It's bad enough already. As to getting less done, if that actually was the result I'd be all in favour. A lot of party political legislation is doing/undoing/thwarting the oppositions legislation at great expense to us all. You only have to look at the costly changes in education policy (random example) each time there is a change in the colour of government. I'd agree with your second paragraph as a lot of time and effort is wasted fighting over party policies, especially when there are small differences. I'm sure that parties make up differences just to be different sometimes now that we seem to have a more liberal democracy these days. On your first paragraph, as each candidate MP would effectively have their own manifesto, the local constituency would have a good idea what the candidate stood for if they became elected. Also with parliament TV, the public get a good chance to see what is going on inside the house these days. I doubt many bother to watch though. One other thought I had about this is that very important issues like the environment and Brexit would be pushed by all MP's without the need to split the voter further by parties like the Green Party and Brexit Party. I mean what would have happened if the Brexit party gained a majority (I know highly unlikely), could they find enough competent MP's to decide on other policies? Could they find a competent PM? I think over the last 100 years or so things have changed since the workers demanded more representation in parliament. Hence why the labour party was formed. Now everyone has been able to receive information and education for many years, partially thanks to the internet, we are all pretty well informed and able to make judgements about the way the country is run. |
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Post by lollygagger on May 10, 2020 6:43:21 GMT
There would be inevitable vote trading to get anything through so bang goes your MPs voting with their conscience.
I'm not suggesting that first past the post is a good thing BTW - it's a disaster and I'm sure there is a more representative way, but our political system is set up for rule rather than representation and herein lies the problem - to change it is like expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 7:07:57 GMT
There would be inevitable vote trading to get anything through so bang goes your MPs voting with their conscience. I'm not suggesting that first past the post is a good thing BTW - it's a disaster and I'm sure there is a more representative way, but our political system is set up for rule rather than representation and herein lies the problem - to change it is like expecting turkeys to vote for Christmas. Isn't vote trading already a problem especially when compounded with towing a party line? How wouid it be worse with a non partisan government? I think you are right about the current system being set up to rule rather than provide representation. Maybe that could only be improved by passing more control (law etc) to local government. In a way that's a bit like the USA. It also kind of fits in with the idea of localisation rather than globalisation. You have made me think of a possible disadvantage though. Independents (individuals) might be more prone to political attack than those protected by a party. Then again they could still reach out to their constituents for help.. and watch them run away. ....bugger it, I'll stick to playing bass and let the lead guitarist do his thing...  |
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Post by lollygagger on May 10, 2020 8:15:14 GMT
@bassplayer - I didn't say worse I said no better/different in the long run.
The US is odd - they can legalise something in a state but if the big chief doesn't like it they send the Federal police in to nick people under federal law! A bit like the EU laws/courts being a step above the UK equivalent perhaps.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 9:00:49 GMT
@bassplayer - I didn't say worse I said no better/different in the long run. The US is odd - they can legalise something in a state but if the big chief doesn't like it they send the Federal police in to nick people under federal law! A bit like the EU laws/courts being a step above the UK equivalent perhaps. ....and they have lots of guns... |
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Post by Jim on May 10, 2020 12:39:24 GMT
A simple solution to some of this, secret votes for MPs in the Commons. It would put a stop to some of the bullying by whips etc and MPs could then vote according to their conscience.
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Post by Telemachus on May 10, 2020 13:51:05 GMT
I’m with Rog on this one. Party politics has its downsides but non-party governments would never get anything done. Rarely is an issue binary, and so parliament would get 100 different options to vote for none of which would get a majority. This is why party politics was invented. The lesser of 2 evils unless your utopia is an entirely dysfunctional government. Parliament already have All Party Palimentary Groups to debate different issues. If the members of those groups were no longer obliged to push the party line because they are independent, they might agree on policy more easily as they don't have to consider the party line and just say what they really think. The final vote on any policy is binary anyway, yay or nay, eventually a decision has to be made whether it's a non partisan government or not. Anyway, I'm not really sure, that's why I started this thread to see what people thought. Politics is not my strong point, it's just that I don't think either of the 2 main parties truly represent the public anymore. They seem to be more interested in their careers than the wishes of the public these days. Democracy relies on the public having a decent choice, it feels like we don't anymore. Labour seem to have completely lost the plot and the Tories seem to be running away with it. It didn't help that Labour polarised itself with remain (well refused a no deal exit in their manifesto). The centre parties are almost non existent and smaller parties like the Green Party struggle to find anyone strong enough to be a PM. So we have had pretty much a binary parliament for years (Labour and Tory) except that it's now becoming a single party government. BTW, if we had a non partisan government we wouldn't have a position where a party like DUP could tip the overall power of government? We're all doomed I tell you. Have you ever worked in industry? If so you will know that stuff designed by a committee is usually pretty hopeless, in an attempt to appease everyone it pleases no-one and is ineffective. We see exactly the same thing at the gliding club. The committee has meetings, stuff is discussed endlessly but rarely does anything actually get done. Stuff gets done when an individual or small group, decides to “make it happen” by actually doing it, not just talking about it. I see a parallel with government - you need a small core of “go getters” that lead, everyone else pretty much follows. It’s how humans work and why party politics is a necessary evil. |
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Post by Jim on May 10, 2020 14:00:04 GMT
Parliament already have All Party Palimentary Groups to debate different issues. If the members of those groups were no longer obliged to push the party line because they are independent, they might agree on policy more easily as they don't have to consider the party line and just say what they really think. The final vote on any policy is binary anyway, yay or nay, eventually a decision has to be made whether it's a non partisan government or not. Anyway, I'm not really sure, that's why I started this thread to see what people thought. Politics is not my strong point, it's just that I don't think either of the 2 main parties truly represent the public anymore. They seem to be more interested in their careers than the wishes of the public these days. Democracy relies on the public having a decent choice, it feels like we don't anymore. Labour seem to have completely lost the plot and the Tories seem to be running away with it. It didn't help that Labour polarised itself with remain (well refused a no deal exit in their manifesto). The centre parties are almost non existent and smaller parties like the Green Party struggle to find anyone strong enough to be a PM. So we have had pretty much a binary parliament for years (Labour and Tory) except that it's now becoming a single party government. BTW, if we had a non partisan government we wouldn't have a position where a party like DUP could tip the overall power of government? We're all doomed I tell you. Have you ever worked in industry? If so you will know that stuff designed by a committee is usually pretty hopeless, in an attempt to appease everyone it pleases no-one and is ineffective. We see exactly the same thing at the gliding club. The committee has meetings, stuff is discussed endlessly but rarely does anything actually get done. Stuff gets done when an individual or small group, decides to “make it happen” by actually doing it, not just talking about it. I see a parallel with government - you need a small core of “go getters” that lead, everyone else pretty much follows. It’s how humans work and why party politics is a necessary evil. Almost have that at the moment - Go get for myselfers. |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 14:09:15 GMT
Did a man who used to profit from another's desire to put a roof over their head really write that Jim ! This country is conservative and clings to the status quo ... run by the Civil Service within the established order ...with politicians of whatever colour, occasionally meddling until the politicians of the other colour get their chance to unpick and meddle themselves. The greatest impediment to meaningful change, and a new order is ourselves. Whilst we squabble and blame, the establishment quietly goes on and on  Rog |
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2020 15:19:12 GMT
Parliament already have All Party Palimentary Groups to debate different issues. If the members of those groups were no longer obliged to push the party line because they are independent, they might agree on policy more easily as they don't have to consider the party line and just say what they really think. The final vote on any policy is binary anyway, yay or nay, eventually a decision has to be made whether it's a non partisan government or not. Anyway, I'm not really sure, that's why I started this thread to see what people thought. Politics is not my strong point, it's just that I don't think either of the 2 main parties truly represent the public anymore. They seem to be more interested in their careers than the wishes of the public these days. Democracy relies on the public having a decent choice, it feels like we don't anymore. Labour seem to have completely lost the plot and the Tories seem to be running away with it. It didn't help that Labour polarised itself with remain (well refused a no deal exit in their manifesto). The centre parties are almost non existent and smaller parties like the Green Party struggle to find anyone strong enough to be a PM. So we have had pretty much a binary parliament for years (Labour and Tory) except that it's now becoming a single party government. BTW, if we had a non partisan government we wouldn't have a position where a party like DUP could tip the overall power of government? We're all doomed I tell you. Have you ever worked in industry? If so you will know that stuff designed by a committee is usually pretty hopeless, in an attempt to appease everyone it pleases no-one and is ineffective. We see exactly the same thing at the gliding club. The committee has meetings, stuff is discussed endlessly but rarely does anything actually get done. Stuff gets done when an individual or small group, decides to “make it happen” by actually doing it, not just talking about it. I see a parallel with government - you need a small core of “go getters” that lead, everyone else pretty much follows. It’s how humans work and why party politics is a necessary evil. Trust me, I know exactly what you mean as I have worked many years in industry. In my job, at one point we had 2 engineers per manager. We got drawn into many pointless meetings to justify their jobs. Yes, it reminds me of the suffragettes famous saying...."Deeds, not words". The hard workers in the gliding club were those who chipped in mowing the grass, laying cables out, maintaining the infrastructure, maintaining the aircraft, running the bar/restaurant etc. Club members also helped out supporting eachothers flights and retrieving land outs. Andy (the CFI) worked tirelessly trying to retain our flight space and keeping the club going. Actually very few did bugger all. I remember someone once saying that if a postman loses his management, the post still gets delivered. If the management lose their postman, nothing gets delivered. Didn't someone here mention a country which ran happily for a while with no government. Maybe that's the answer. |
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Post by JohnV on May 12, 2020 7:09:25 GMT
Have you ever worked in industry? If so you will know that stuff designed by a committee is usually pretty hopeless, in an attempt to appease everyone it pleases no-one and is ineffective. We see exactly the same thing at the gliding club. The committee has meetings, stuff is discussed endlessly but rarely does anything actually get done. Stuff gets done when an individual or small group, decides to “make it happen” by actually doing it, not just talking about it. I see a parallel with government - you need a small core of “go getters” that lead, everyone else pretty much follows. It’s how humans work and why party politics is a necessary evil. Didn't someone here mention a country which ran happily for a while with no government. Maybe that's the answer. Belgium for 541 days (beating Cambodia's earlier record of 353 days, length of time from wikipedia) I knew the countries but couldn't recall the exact length of time |
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