|
Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 10, 2020 22:58:56 GMT
I think it depends on whether you think it is right to punish people for the sins of their great, great (etc etc) grandfathers who dId stuff that was normal, wasn’t a crime or considered immoral or a sin at the time. I think it’s always dangerous to judge and punish people for stuff done a long time ago, using the current versions of law and morality. Otherwise know as retrospective judging and law making. If something you did 20 years ago that was perfectly normal, reasonable and legal at the time, suddenly became illegal for some reason, you would be pretty pissed off to get a knock on the door from Mr Plod armed with an arrest warrant. Just as an example, let’s say Greta becomes president of the world in 20 years time because the whole international zeitgeist has become about climate change /carbon emissions etc. Looking back, it is unthinkable how people could have been so selfish and stupid as to burn fossil fuels for pleasure even after there was widespread knowledge about the damage it was doing. She not only bans all Diesel engines, but also seeks to prosecute anyone who in the past has ever used a Diesel engine in a leisure activity. I doubt you would like that much. This is why we should not apologise for the slave trade. Regret is OK, but an apology implies that we (the living) made a mistake that we regret. We weren't living then.
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jun 11, 2020 6:14:25 GMT
Any statues you'd care to add? I’d like to nominate this cat hating bastard’s statue... Should be pulled down immediately... “Greyfriars Bobby”..14 years sat on his arse.. Lazy as well as Cattist!🙄 Cats lives matter! 🐈 I'll give it a home...look great in my front garden... Dogs lives matter...
|
|
|
Post by patty on Jun 11, 2020 6:23:17 GMT
When is it going to end? Where is the line going to be drawn? We come out of Coronageddon to then get embroiled into racial tensions, violence, protests etc Jeepers we need to recover, rebuild our economy ..thats what should be the focus..not what statue to topple History is history, we cannot deny it... ok so i'm not averse to the 'monsters' of our society being removed elsewhere but when u look at the news...I feel sorry for the postman if they rename roads/streets/buildings. I'd like to see the world work towards recovery and rebuilding society not tearing it all down.
|
|
|
Post by naughtyfox on Jun 11, 2020 6:34:35 GMT
I think your desire to seek financial retribution is misplaced. Throughout history there has been lots of unfairness and bad things done to others. So it just depends on how far back you want to go, and how thorough you want to be. If you are going to go after the descendants of slavers to make a point, what about their other legacies such as all the buildings, institutions and charities. Should they be pulled down / destroyed/ dissolved? And what about all those same things that arose from other aspects of the British empire? If you are going to get rid of all those, there isn’t going to be much left except the odd 1960s council estate and shopping complex. and how far back do you want to go? Let’s go after all the descendants of the Normans who invaded England (eeek that’s probably me), or maybe it should be the descendants of the Romans? And on BLM in USA, how come the blacks are clamouring about them being victims of slavery whilst not giving a shit that the entire USA was founded on genocide and the stealing of land from the native Americans. It’s all about portraying yourself as a victim and using that as an excuse to try to grab something. And what about the Africans who cheerfully sold their fellow citizens to the slave traders for profit, the Arabs who enslaved anyone they could find etc etc. Clearly there is a huge problem with racism in the USA and still some problem in UK, but when extremists get involved with a selective desire to use history to grab something they didn’t work for, the fundamental point is lost. It is effectively the same as looting. Which is a shame. if I was a descendant of an African slave. Which if I was it would be logical to go after the money. African countries abuse their financial 'International Aid' every day. Should it be logical to go after the money and claw it back? Why are we even giving it?
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 6:45:30 GMT
Thomas Guy. ...... he made a lot of money from owning shares in the South Sea Bubble (and smart enough to get out before the bubble burst) which among it's many activities was involved in slaving but he also made a lot of money from the printing and distribution of unliscenced bibles as well as many other investments. Please note shareholder not a principle. He paid for the building of Guy's Hospital. His financial support for Guys and St Thomas's set up an incredibly important teaching hospital that contributed tremendously to the advancement of medicine. Let's forget all that tear down his statue, change the name of the hospital and blot him out from history ..... crazy
Should add that all this was 300 sodding years ago !!!
|
|
|
Post by lollygagger on Jun 11, 2020 7:02:32 GMT
These philanthropists became obscenely wealthy by others having short, crap lives. Who really paid for their "charitable" legacies?
Nothing really changes, obscene wealth still piles up by the labours of people who to all intents and purposes are still slaves and the wealthy continue to decide who to give a bit back to. That doesn't make them worthy of statues now and it didn't then. Pull them down, why not? Rename Guys after the type of people that actually funded it through their sweat and short abused lives. Answers on a postcard, but please stop bigging up historically demonstrable thieving gits masquerading as philanthropists to appease their guilt.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Jun 11, 2020 7:32:32 GMT
These philanthropists became obscenely wealthy by others having short, crap lives. Who really paid for their "charitable" legacies? <snip> stop bigging up historically demonstrable thieving gits masquerading as philanthropists to appease their guilt. You are wrong .... you are judging someone by todays mores .... not theirs at the time.
Many of the major institutions that do enormous amounts of good were founded by those you would consider obscenely rich who achieved their wealth at others expense. You cannot seperate the two.
Far more immoral are those obscenely rich people today who fritter their huge wealth away on super yachts and other expensive toys that flatter their own life.
How do you think "masquerading as philanthropists to appease their guilt" is correct ?
What guilt ? ....... three hundred years ago what they were doing was not illegal.
By the mores of the time it wasn't immoral, in fact wasn't even questionable.
To judge historic actions of societies by modern standards is fine in order to demonstrate the wrongs that were done.
To blame the individuals who were acting according to the standards of that society is stupidity, it's looking for scapegoats
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 7:48:22 GMT
It is a fact that many monuments, and church chapels and mausoleums, were financed by the estate of the individual concerned for self aggrandizement purposes ... the good works coupled with their own promotion.
It can serve no practical purpose to attempt to defend history, and whilst it saddens me, let them re-name and remove.
Society has created the injustice, and having made our bed we surely must lie in it.
If the reward is a fairer more just world, it must be a price worth paying.
Rog
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:00:40 GMT
If the reward is a fairer more just world, it must be a price worth paying. Rog It won't change anything because people will get bored and go off and chase another injustice once it is replaced on their facebook feed.
|
|
|
Post by naughtyfox on Jun 11, 2020 8:05:10 GMT
"I want reparations from Rome as they raped and pillaged our country. I also want the Colosseum pulled down as it was built by slaves, and a UK wide boycott of all Italian cars, also Hadrian's Wall needs to come down as it's a reminder of Roman oppression." "Let's demolish one of the seven wonders of the world - the Pyramids in Egypt then - they were built by slaves!" "The Canal and River Trust worked with the Museum of London and the London Borough of Tower Hamlets to remove the bronze figure of Scottish merchant Milligan" - oh, CRT have time for this? Take note, Quaysider! 'Keyworker'? Removing statues whilst the whole country is on a 'lockdown' because of the coronavirus? Is this really essential work at this time? www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8405677/Social-media-users-threaten-BOYCOTT-Sainsburys-removal-Robert-Milligan-statue.htmlThese protesters would be respected more if they protested about modern day slavery.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jun 11, 2020 8:13:12 GMT
Isnt it time you moved on from this teenager like fascination? I have largely. A few years ago I used to think about it all the time. Nowadays it's not so frequent. The time I save isn't wasted, instead, I think about surfing, collecting razor clams and the wonders that are industrial anglepoise lamps. You do realise having intimate relations with industrial lighting is a bit weird?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:17:29 GMT
I bet it was canary wharf security who asked for the statue to be removed. They take security seriously there.
It will be replaced once the fuss has died down...
They don't want a large group of idiots turning up and being annoying.
Get the statue down probably makes that outcome less probable mathematically.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:20:07 GMT
If the reward is a fairer more just world, it must be a price worth paying. Rog It won't change anything because people will get bored and go off and chase another injustice once it is replaced on their facebook feed. Forget twitter and facebook and fashion. Is there an ongoing injustice ? Should we try and make it a more just world ? Or should we just bitch about SOME people's methods of achieving a more fair just world ? If we simply defend what is ... nothing can change. Rog
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:21:13 GMT
I have largely. A few years ago I used to think about it all the time. Nowadays it's not so frequent. The time I save isn't wasted, instead, I think about surfing, collecting razor clams and the wonders that are industrial anglepoise lamps. You do realise having intimate relations with industrial lighting is a bit weird? I thought that was fairly normal.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2020 8:22:11 GMT
It won't change anything because people will get bored and go off and chase another injustice once it is replaced on their facebook feed. Forget twitter and facebook and fashion. Is there an ongoing injustice ? Should we try and make it a more just world ? Or should we just bitch about SOME people's methods of achieving a more fair just world ? If we simply defend what is ... nothing can change. Rog No but being serious for a minute. Do you really think anything will fundamentally change? I don't. You can't actually undo history it doesn't work like that. ETA I believe it is slightly unwise to say "forget facebook". You simply can't discount social media from this story. The power facebook has over people's lives is extraordinary and quite scary.
|
|