Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 19:23:52 GMT
Considering the fact that the nbta main reason for existence is to make itinerant living on a boat illegal I'd say this is a good victory.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jun 30, 2020 21:03:51 GMT
Considering the fact that the nbta main reason for existence is to make itinerant living on a boat illegal I'd say this is a good victory. Twat.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2020 21:15:07 GMT
Twat
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jun 30, 2020 22:06:32 GMT
Considering the fact that the nbta main reason for existence is to make itinerant living on a boat illegal I'd say this is a good victory. Okay I’ll try again, have you any proof to back up that statement.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jul 1, 2020 6:34:09 GMT
No I thought not.
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Jul 1, 2020 7:27:09 GMT
Apparently CRT's 'terms and conditions' are not The Law. Strictly speaking, that is so, . . but thanks to the ability of C&RT's squad of liars lawyers to repeatedly fool the Courts into believing and accepting their fairy stories about the wholly imaginary powers they falsely claim to have inherited under S.43(3) of the 1962 Transport Act, the T&C's do, in effect, carry the weight of the law, . . and will continue so to do unless and until someone succeeds in persuading the Courts to put the record straight.
|
|
|
Post by NigelMoore on Jul 1, 2020 22:07:18 GMT
I first read through this judgment in some dismay at the unquestioning swallowing of the Boat Licence “contractual” nature, alert to any knock-on effects in relation to other current issues plaguing yet another sector of boaters, with offside moorings that CaRT refuse to recognise. The refusal of the Appeal Court to consider my marshalled arguments on that topic (in the interests of focussing on a single issue), meant that the EoG situation has remained since then, where Stoner & Co had left it at County Court levels – that the boat licence did NOT confer any right for the boat to occupy “land covered by water”, this being (on Stoner's argument) a 'right to keep' a boat on the water, rather than a 'right to use' a boat on the water, both rights having been abolished by the TA 1968.
I have always maintained the nonsense of that argument, by reference to the wording of the 1976 byelaws, which provide that the PB licence confers – very specifically – the right to bring onto, let for hire, keep AND use the licensed boat on the Board's canals. The effect being that no further consent on CaRT's part is needed to avoid any trespass action simply for floating over the canal bed.
Since those 'simpler' times, of course, CaRT have finessed their whole boat licensing scheme theory into the realm of contract law, instead of the truth that it is bound by the terms of the relevant statutes. This has 'allowed' them (in practical reality, however illegally) to give or withhold the licence at will; limit what the licence does and does not permit, and render it all subject to their agreement based on the boat owner's enforced submission to an agreement to the arbitrary (and ultra vires) T&C's.
Now, however, this recent judgment has – in at least ostensibly accepting and wholeheartedly endorsing the contractual nature of the boat licence – determined the effect of that to be a grant of consent to occupy the land beneath the water on which the boat floats. Further, that this applies across the board, whether on a CC 14 day basis or in a home mooring situation.
The further serendipitous effect of this judgment therefore, is to hoist CaRT firmly by their own petard, and remove their long-held false rationale for giving or withholding consent for boat owners to moor to their own property.
Interesting.
|
|
|
Post by peterboat on Jul 2, 2020 11:24:28 GMT
Jayne rang me up yesterday from work about this, she works for the DWP. I quickly looked it up and gave her the info, which now means another boater has his license paid for by the state, and his moorings for good measure, forums do have their uses
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jul 2, 2020 11:27:54 GMT
My cousin, who has been living on a CRT "leisure" towpath mooring for about 10 years told me that one of the moorings came up at auction and someone acquired it on housing benefit. The effect was that he could outbid others because the amount of money the housing office would provide was fixed. So he got the mooring and it was far more expensive than previous auctions because of demand at that moment.
Seems a bit dodgy. The mooring in question is a site where CRT have previously asked the council for PP to install several residential towpath side moorings but were refused.
This might not be entirely accurate as it is second hand news but I reckon it's probably true..
I know the mooring site as I used to live there years ago and it was blatantly obvious that the first few moorings should be converted to residential with services.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jul 2, 2020 13:19:12 GMT
Jayne rang me up yesterday from work about this, she works for the DWP. I quickly looked it up and gave her the info, which now means another boater has his license paid for by the state, and his moorings for good measure, forums do have their uses That’s exactly why I posted it.
|
|
|
Post by kris on Jul 2, 2020 13:23:30 GMT
My cousin, who has been living on a CRT "leisure" towpath mooring for about 10 years told me that one of the moorings came up at auction and someone acquired it on housing benefit. The effect was that he could outbid others because the amount of money the housing office would provide was fixed. So he got the mooring and it was far more expensive than previous auctions because of demand at that moment. Seems a bit dodgy. The mooring in question is a site where CRT have previously asked the council for PP to install several residential towpath side moorings but were refused. This might not be entirely accurate as it is second hand news but I reckon it's probably true.. I know the mooring site as I used to live there years ago and it was blatantly obvious that the first few moorings should be converted to residential with services. Mooring prices seem to have risen quite sharply over the last few years anyway. The auction system has lead to this. There are lots of refugees from sawley marina who have moved to the towpath locally pushing prices at auction of waterside moorings. Also the London trend of young couples who can’t afford bricks and mortar buying a boat seems to be moving north.
|
|
|
Post by naughtyfox on Jul 2, 2020 16:45:52 GMT
Just wait 'til 3 million Hong Kong Chinese come over, all wanting their CRT licence to be paid for by the state! Another 3 million boats on the waterways - what could go wrong?!
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Jul 8, 2020 11:34:33 GMT
I first read through this judgment in some dismay at the unquestioning swallowing of the Boat Licence “contractual” nature, alert to any knock-on effects in relation to other current issues plaguing yet another sector of boaters, with offside moorings that CaRT refuse to recognise. The refusal of the Appeal Court to consider my marshalled arguments on that topic (in the interests of focussing on a single issue), meant that the EoG situation has remained since then, where Stoner & Co had left it at County Court levels – that the boat licence did NOT confer any right for the boat to occupy “land covered by water”, this being (on Stoner's argument) a 'right to keep' a boat on the water, rather than a 'right to use' a boat on the water, both rights having been abolished by the TA 1968. I have always maintained the nonsense of that argument, by reference to the wording of the 1976 byelaws, which provide that the PB licence confers – very specifically – the right to bring onto, let for hire, keep AND use the licensed boat on the Board's canals. The effect being that no further consent on CaRT's part is needed to avoid any trespass action simply for floating over the canal bed. Since those 'simpler' times, of course, CaRT have finessed their whole boat licensing scheme theory into the realm of contract law, instead of the truth that it is bound by the terms of the relevant statutes. This has 'allowed' them (in practical reality, however illegally) to give or withhold the licence at will; limit what the licence does and does not permit, and render it all subject to their agreement based on the boat owner's enforced submission to an agreement to the arbitrary (and ultra vires) T&C's. Now, however, this recent judgment has – in at least ostensibly accepting and wholeheartedly endorsing the contractual nature of the boat licence – determined the effect of that to be a grant of consent to occupy the land beneath the water on which the boat floats. Further, that this applies across the board, whether on a CC 14 day basis or in a home mooring situation. The further serendipitous effect of this judgment therefore, is to hoist CaRT firmly by their own petard, and remove their long-held false rationale for giving or withholding consent for boat owners to moor to their own property. Interesting. Is that particular bit of C&RT/Stoner nonsense readily accessible via any link or already published transcript, Nigel ? Hostilities over C&RT's self-conferred, but nonetheless County Court endorsed, powers to suspend the river Trent PRN at will are about to resume, and I'm wondering if there could be anything in Stoner's EoG argument that they would prefer not to be reminded of.
|
|
|
Post by NigelMoore on Jul 9, 2020 14:40:00 GMT
the EoG situation has remained since then, where Stoner & Co had left it at County Court levels – that the boat licence did NOT confer any right for the boat to occupy “land covered by water”, this being (on Stoner's argument) a 'right to keep' a boat on the water, rather than a 'right to use' a boat on the water, both rights having been abolished by the TA 1968. Is that particular bit of C&RT/Stoner nonsense readily accessible via any link or already published transcript, Nigel ? Hostilities over C&RT's self-conferred, but nonetheless County Court endorsed, powers to suspend the river Trent PRN at will are about to resume, and I'm wondering if there could be anything in Stoner's EoG argument that they would prefer not to be reminded of. There were 3 relevant CCJ's Tony, which resulted in the publishing of BW's EoG 'Informative'. 1990 BW v Dawkins www.scribd.com/doc/297338822/1990-BW-v-Dawkins-1990 1991 BW v Allen, Crennell & Shaw - www.scribd.com/doc/297338821/BW-v-Allen-Crennell-Shaw-Judgment 2001 BW v Roberts www.scribd.com/doc/297338823/2001-Judgment-BWB-v-John-William-Roberts-8-August-2001 That last is extraordinary, because the CC judge happily declares therein that any conferred riparian rights – confirmed as retained by the Appeal Court in Swan Hill 5 years earlier (and by the High Court in BW v Paine only 3 years earlier) – had been abolished! Ignoramus (and note that Mr Stoner did not disabuse the judge of his error). The upshot was Mr Johnson's 'EoG Informative', which forms the essential basis for the subsequent varieties of justification. www.scribd.com/document/468570087/Eogmooring-Informative Note, however, that the core argument – as explicated most clearly in the 1991 CCJ – relied upon use of T&C's attached to issue of the boat licence - “Prior to 1973 . . . end of garden moorings did not require a permit from the Board.”
“In 1977 the craft licensing supervisor issued a new set of conditions relating to the issue of pleasure boats . . . which replaced the 1972 and 1973 licence conditions for pleasure boat licences.” . . . “most importantly . . . “Before arranging to moor to property not owned by the Board, the Board's consent will be required if the boat is in the Board's water although attached to to privately owned land and an appropriate fee will be charged by the Board.”
They had not let much time elapse once they had the PBL made mandatory the previous year! Of course, the 1995 Act rather dented the value of relying on the T&C's as a prerequisite for licence issue, but we have seen how they have pulled the wool over gullible eyes since then.
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Jul 9, 2020 15:29:07 GMT
Is that particular bit of C&RT/Stoner nonsense readily accessible via any link or already published transcript, Nigel ? Hostilities over C&RT's self-conferred, but nonetheless County Court endorsed, powers to suspend the river Trent PRN at will are about to resume, and I'm wondering if there could be anything in Stoner's EoG argument that they would prefer not to be reminded of. There were 3 relevant CCJ's Tony, which resulted in the publishing of BW's EoG 'Informative'. . . . . . . . . . . . .............................. . . . . . . . . . . ................... Thanks for that, Nigel. I'll wade through all of it over the next few days, . . in 20 years of knowingly lying to and misleading the Courts, there just HAS to be a fair quantity of stuff that C&RT's lawyers would now prefer not to have on the record, . . or forming the basis of standing Judgments.
|
|