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Post by Graham on Oct 9, 2016 19:09:01 GMT
If you're forking out over two grand for the batteries, you would have to be a real penny pincher not to buy an new charging system as well its not just buying a charging system, most of the kit is obviously built for lead acid batteries.So finding suitable kit is difficult, old goat from cwdf had sterling write a new programme for his charger,(not cheap I imagine.) I have approx 800-900ah of Nifes that came with the boat. They where built by lucas in the 50's supposed to last over 100years. I've looked into rejuvenating them, but as I say it's the voltage they need that is difficult. Just too good to get rid of so another thing just taking up space. There are some chargers around for NiFes and I am sure that you could get a regulator for most alternators that would suit. If memory is awake I seem to remember rejuvenation is a case of empty the old electrolyte out, think rinse out and drain, put new electrolyte in, and away you go. supposed to be done every five years I do believe. Of course Sterling now have the capability
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Post by JohnV on Oct 9, 2016 20:00:55 GMT
If you're forking out over two grand for the batteries, you would have to be a real penny pincher not to buy an new charging system as well its not just buying a charging system, most of the kit is obviously built for lead acid batteries.So finding suitable kit is difficult, old goat from cwdf had sterling write a new programme for his charger,(not cheap I imagine.) I have approx 800-900ah of Nifes that came with the boat. They where built by lucas in the 50's supposed to last over 100years. I've looked into rejuvenating them, but as I say it's the voltage they need that is difficult. Just too good to get rid of so another thing just taking up space. I think a lot depends on how sophisticated you want your charger ..... NiFe cells will tolerate lots of rough and ready treatment and a constant charge rate of about 1.6 volts per cell will work quite well. Not a demanding requirement and can often be achieved with a crude transformer and diode charging system.
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Post by kris on Oct 10, 2016 9:18:07 GMT
I might have a look at them again, as I say they are too good to get rid of. They are very sturdyily cased and if they have got another 50 years in them could be worth saving. I know it's an alkali that's the electrolyte. I just seem to have so many things to do and not enough time to do them.
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Post by Graham on Oct 10, 2016 9:19:43 GMT
I might have a look at them again, as I say they are too good to get rid of. They are very sturdyily cased and if they have got another 50 years in them could be worth saving. I know it's an alkali that's the electrolyte. I just seem to have so many things to do and not enough time to do them. Think they will charge at the lower voltage just take longer
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Post by kris on Oct 10, 2016 9:22:38 GMT
I might have a look at them again, as I say they are too good to get rid of. They are very sturdyily cased and if they have got another 50 years in them could be worth saving. I know it's an alkali that's the electrolyte. I just seem to have so many things to do and not enough time to do them. Think they will charge at the lower voltage just take longer ias John said its 1.6v a cell rather than the 2.2 for lead acid.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 10, 2016 9:35:40 GMT
There is no getting away from the fact that they can have incredible longevity. I remember reading (not that many years ago) that some of the original production batteries produced by Edison are still working. Their downsides is poor efficiencies and self discharge. they also need (every few years) new electrolyte but this I understand is not desperately expensive. I have never had direct personal experience with using them, but had acquaintance with people who did.
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Post by Graham on Oct 10, 2016 10:40:33 GMT
Think they will charge at the lower voltage just take longer ias John said its 1.6v a cell rather than the 2.2 for lead acid. The charging voltages for NiFe solar charge controller settings for these batteries we recommend the following: 1.2V cell 12V 24V 48V Equalise1.65v 16.5v 33v 66v Boost 1.55v 15.5v 31v 62v Float 1.45v. 14.5v 29v 58v
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Post by kris on Oct 10, 2016 10:42:44 GMT
ias John said its 1.6v a cell rather than the 2.2 for lead acid. The charging voltages for NiFe solar charge controller settings for these batteries we recommend the following: 1.2V cell 12V 24V 48V Equalise1.65v 16.5v 33v 66v Boost 1.55v 15.5v 31v 62v Float 1.45v. 14.5v 29v 58v thanks for that, it'll go on the to do list.
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Post by chalky on Oct 21, 2016 13:16:40 GMT
One thing overlooked is the failure mode of lithium batteries. When they let go they're like a cutting torch and would be through a steel hull in no time. When lead acid lets go it's a clean up, not a new boat.
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Post by Graham on Oct 21, 2016 14:02:07 GMT
One thing overlooked is the failure mode of lithium batteries. When they let go they're like a cutting torch and would be through a steel hull in no time. When lead acid lets go it's a clean up, not a new boat. NeFis don't have this problem of course so another tick for them
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Post by chalky on Oct 22, 2016 18:10:25 GMT
There are lots of different lithium battery chemistries, some more stable and robust that others. The terminal voltage is between 2.8 to 3.4v per cell, so you either have a battery that's more than 12v is or need a power converter to soft the voltage. Unlike lead acid some cell types will allow you to use their entire capacity without damage. What really adds to the cost and complexity is the need for a battery management system to keep everything under control and stop it running away.
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Post by Graham on Oct 22, 2016 18:21:11 GMT
There are lots of different lithium battery chemistries, some more stable and robust that others. The terminal voltage is between 2.8 to 3.4v per cell, so you either have a battery that's more than 12v is or need a power converter to soft the voltage. Unlike lead acid some cell types will allow you to use their entire capacity without damage. What really adds to the cost and complexity is the need for a battery management system to keep everything under control and stop it running away. Yep and until they get the price per kWh down to close to lead acid I would suggest they are not a goer for liveaboards
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Post by chalky on Oct 22, 2016 18:41:30 GMT
I know the prices for the cells and it's horrendous compared to lead acid.
I looked at converting a car to electric propulsion an I was looking at over £10k to store the amount of energy that I get for £20 with petrol.
Long term lithium batteries will become cheaper. Once a vehicle traction battery is past its useful life it's still got huge amounts of reserve for domestic use. This is where the savings will come from.
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Post by JohnV on Oct 23, 2016 7:42:13 GMT
I know the prices for the cells and it's horrendous compared to lead acid. I looked at converting a car to electric propulsion an I was looking at over £10k to store the amount of energy that I get for £20 with petrol. Long term lithium batteries will become cheaper. Once a vehicle traction battery is past its useful life it's still got huge amounts of reserve for domestic use. This is where the savings will come from. It will be interesting to see what comes of it (lithium batteries) As a long term solution to battery production for the world it must be considered a stop gap unless ways are found to virtually 100% re-cycle the lithium. I know it was a few years ago but the US geological survey reckoned there were only some 13 million tonnes available in deposits ...... worldwide !
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2016 8:26:52 GMT
I know the prices for the cells and it's horrendous compared to lead acid. I looked at converting a car to electric propulsion an I was looking at over £10k to store the amount of energy that I get for £20 with petrol. Long term lithium batteries will become cheaper. Once a vehicle traction battery is past its useful life it's still got huge amounts of reserve for domestic use. This is where the savings will come from. It will be interesting to see what comes of it (lithium batteries) As a long term solution to battery production for the world it must be considered a stop gap unless ways are found to virtually 100% re-cycle the lithium. I know it was a few years ago but the US geological survey reckoned there were only some 13 million tonnes available in deposits ...... worldwide ! I was looking at this article a while back which describes briefly all of the new battery technologies currently being explored.. www.pocket-lint.com/news/130380-future-batteries-coming-soon-charge-in-seconds-last-months-and-power-over-the-airI'm pretty sure they will held back a bit until the oil barons have made all their money from the remaining oil reserves! It's said that the sun delivers more energy to earth in one hour than all humanity uses in a year. Solar, tidal and wind power are the way forward. Battery technology is such an important factor in the future. My mate has recently bought a Nissan Leaf (a 100% electric car). It's a great car but the weakest link is the battery pack. Even if charged very carefully at the lower current rates they reckon the battery pack will need changing after 10 years. Realistically with fast charging and partial charges this could be halved. At £7000 a pop that takes out a lot of the savings on oil based fuel. Also in practice the quoted max range is usually less and you may end up wasting mileage trying to find a charge point. Lets put it thia way, he did a trip from Hertfordshire to Dorset and just lets say it took some time! Hopefully humanity will stop this nonsense where future technology is restrained in order to make money out of current technology.
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