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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 16:44:54 GMT
The stupidity of it all is the fact that there is plenty of mooring, but parry won't maintain it to make it available. I see mile upon mile of inaccessible mooring just wasting away because of carts dire incompetence. As usual it's develop a problem to solve.
I think the trust was pretty much explained by the chair, (Alan Leighton) answering a question about the expertise he was bringing to his position, "I sometimes run on the towpath". What a div.
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Post by peterboat on Sept 28, 2020 16:46:32 GMT
I can see some great responses to this survey the problem is none boat owners might fill it in
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 16:49:08 GMT
Currently moored near a Tesco on the GU, rings provided but only about every other mooring is deep enough to get a boat in to moor - long pound (Cowley to London so no excuses about water levels).
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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 28, 2020 16:51:28 GMT
Cheer up folks and follow the Bee!
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Post by thebfg on Sept 28, 2020 17:02:58 GMT
And of course, a contract cannot usurp legislation. Although getting a judge to back that up in this case might be difficult. This is where Nigel will be greatly missed. But statutory law will always gazump a contract. Which a judge will have to back up. The real problem is it is extra conditions to the law, as in the act doesn't specifically allow a boater with a home mooring to bridge hop. It just allows it by omission. The real battle will be convincing a judge that you did not accept the t&c's. I suppose it needs someone to refuse to accept them and then fight for a licence. This needs a pot of people to start writing to the minister, which I doubt they will. I hope I worded that all OK.
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Post by kris on Sept 28, 2020 17:09:53 GMT
Does anybody know what a genuine cruise is? Personally I think cart are opening up a whole new legal can of worms.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 17:17:36 GMT
Does anybody know what a genuine cruise is? Personally I think cart are opening up a whole new legal can of worms. Whatever CRT think is appropriate is my guess. Doesn't bode well for many boaters.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 17:17:45 GMT
It must be bona fide. This means roughly "in good faith".
If you go boating "in bad faith" then you are subject to censure however if you can prove that your boating was "in good faith", and the bar is very high on this, then you will be okay.
I hope this clarifies it.
Genuine = in good faith.
It's simple.
Don't deliberately go for a boat trip in bad faith.
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Post by kris on Sept 28, 2020 17:22:32 GMT
Does anybody know what a genuine cruise is? Personally I think cart are opening up a whole new legal can of worms. Whatever CRT think is appropriate is my guess. Doesn't bode well for many boaters. Exactly I’m trying to cut and paste that whole section but not having much look at the moment. Because I think it’s worthy of examination because the wording is very vague and open to personal interepatation. They reckon they are changing the terms and conditions to bring clarity. As far as I can tell the only thing it brings clarity to, is that carts managment are a bunch of incompetent idiots.
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Post by kris on Sept 28, 2020 17:24:57 GMT
It must be bona fide. This means roughly "in good faith". If you go boating "in bad faith" then you are subject to censure however if you can prove that your boating was "in good faith", and the bar is very high on this, then you will be okay. I hope this clarifies it. Genuine = in good faith. It's simple. Don't deliberately go for a boat trip in bad faith. I’m not sure legally that would wash, the same as the line below that says nominal usage of your home mooring would not count in this case. So in effect they are trying to tell boaters how much time a year they have to spend on their mooring? As I say I think they are opening up a whole new legal can of worms which they will greatly regret.
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Post by naughtyfox on Sept 28, 2020 17:32:23 GMT
They're probably just having a bit of fun with their captive audience. Will we all be paying the increased licence fees? Sure we will!
As for CRT's management being 'incompetent idiots' I think you'll find out by looking at their bank accounts* that they are anything but.
(*very unlikely they'll let you)
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Post by Deleted on Sept 28, 2020 17:34:34 GMT
Whatever CRT think is appropriate is my guess. Doesn't bode well for many boaters. Exactly I’m trying to cut and paste that whole section but not having much look at the moment. Because I think it’s worthy of examination because the wording is very vague and open to personal interepatation. They reckon they are changing the terms and conditions to bring clarity. As far as I can tell the only thing it brings clarity to, is that carts managment are a bunch of incompetent idiots. I can't find a way of posting the details either other than copying a post from Daniel over on CWDF............ Choose what you wish to quote from the below, I think it is unedited.
The proposals are:
Section A. Home Mooring requirement to "cruise"
Currently, our terms and conditions state that: “3.1 You must cruise on the Waterways whilst you are away from the Home Mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site).”
Issue We want to ensure that all boaters get fair access to the whole of our network. Currently the lack of clarity around expectations of how boats cruise whilst away from home means that some boaters with a home mooring remain in a very small area, not returning to their home mooring, which prevents other boaters having fair access to mooring space.
Proposed change "A1. You must cruise on the Waterways whilst away from the Home mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site). The cruise must be a genuine cruise. Minimal or repetitive movement along a short part of a Waterway or Waterways without use of the Home Mooring (nominal use of which shall be disregarded for these purposes) will not be accepted as a genuine cruise."
Section B. Insurance
Currently, our terms and conditions state that:
"5.2 You must have in force an insurance policy for the Boat, provided by a company that is authorised and regulated by the UK Financial Conduct Authority, which covers third-party liabilities of at least two million pounds. The insurance cover must be maintained for the full duration of the Licence. Further details on insurance requirements are set out in Schedule 1 below.
5.3 You agree that we may contact your insurance provider to check the validity of your policy, and you consent to the insurance provider giving us such information as we may reasonably require."
Issue The Trust can better manage the risk of boats having incorrect insurance and strengthen our process to protect waterway users.
Proposed change "B.2 You must have in force an insurance policy for the Boat, provided by a company that is authorised and regulated by the UK Financial Conduct Authority, which covers third-party liabilities of at least two million pounds per event.
B.2.1. The insurance cover must:
B.2.1.1. be maintained for the full duration of the Licence; B.2.1.2.be appropriate for the intended use of the Boat; B.2.1.3 insure the licence applicant, the owner of the [vessel/ boat] and such other person, persons or classes of persons (if any) as is or as authorised by the owner [and or licence applicant] to have control of the vessel, in respect of any liability which may be incurred by the owner or any such other person resulting from the presence of the vessel on any inland waterway in respect of the death of or bodily injury to any person or any damage to property.
B.3 When applying for the Licence, you are asked to declare the following details of the Boat’s insurance:
B.3.1 the name of your insurance provider; B.3.2 the policy number; B.3.3 the expiry date of the policy.
B.4 You must provide a copy of your insurance certificate and/or policy Schedule to Us at the point of licensing via our online portal or by sending a copy by post within 14 days of licensing your boat. You agree to provide a copy of your insurance certificate, policy terms and conditions and policy Schedule upon request.
B.5 You agree that we may contact your insurer and/or broker to check the validity of your policy, and you consent to the insurer and/or broker giving us such information as we may reasonably require.
B.6 You agree to us providing information that we hold about the use, apparent structure and construction of your boat to your insurer and/ or broker.
B.7 If your current insurance certificate expires during the Licence (including any renewal), you must provide evidence of the renewed (or new) insurance and the Conditions of B.2, B.3, B.4, B.5, B.6 and B.7 apply.
Section C. Termination period
Currently, our terms and conditions state that: "8.1 We will write and tell you if we think you have broken the Conditions of your Licence. We will explain how we think you have broken them and how we think you can put things right. We will tell you how long you have to put things right. This time will be at least 28 days or longer if reasonable.
8.2 If you do not put things right within the time we have given you, the Licence will end and you must remove the Boat from our Waterways. We will rebate the cost of the unused part of the Licence in accordance with our Refund Terms (details of which are set out in Schedule 4) as of the date on which you have removed the Boat from our Waterways.
8.3 In the case of a serious or persistent breach of these Conditions, or where we reasonably believe that the breach may endanger the health and safety of other people, we reserve the right either to: (a) immediately suspend your Licence pending an internal investigation to determine whether the breach is capable of remedy. Whilst your Licence is suspended you may not use the Boat to navigate in our Waterways until further notice from us and during the suspension the Boat must remain moored where specified by us unless you choose or you are directed by us to remove the Boat from our waterways, or; (b) terminate your Licence immediately if we conclude that the breach is clearly incapable of remedy.
8.4 If your Licence is terminated in accordance with this Condition 8, you agree that for the remainder of what would have been the Licence period, you will not apply for a new Licence and you will remove the Boat from our Waterways. Should you apply for a new Licence during this period, we will not consider the application."
Issue The current wording leaves some timescales unclear and doesn’t make boater expectations clear. We also believe that the condition can be clearer regarding repeated and serious breaches which would support the Trust in taking action and make obligations clearer to boaters.
Proposed change "C.1 We will write and tell you if we think you have broken the Conditions of your Licence. We will explain how we think you have broken them and how we think you can put things right. Subject to Condition C.3, we will tell you how long you have to put things right. This time will be at least 28 days. We may extend that time if we feel that is reasonable for all parties to achieve a remedy.
C.2 If you do not put things right within the time we have given you, we will terminate the licence and you must remove the Boat from our Waterways within 28 days. We will rebate the cost of the unused part of the Licence in accordance with our Refund Terms as of the date on which you have removed the Boat from our Waterways.
C.3 In the case of repeated breaches of these Conditions over the course of a licence or where a breach causes Us the reasonable belief that there is serious a risk of endangerment of the health and safety of other people or the likelihood of damage to or pollution of any Trust or third-party asset, or where there has been a failure to pay for the licence we reserve the right either to:
a) immediately suspend your Licence pending an internal investigation to determine whether the breach is capable of remedy. Whilst your Licence is suspended you may not use the Boat to navigate on our Waterways until further notice from us and during the suspension the Boat must remain moored where specified by us unless you choose or you are directed by us to remove the Boat from our Waterways, or; b) terminate your Licence immediately if we conclude that the breach is clearly incapable of remedy, the number of repeated breaches is believed to be unreasonable and likely to continue or the risk to health and safety of others is deemed too great.
No refund will be payable for any period of suspension or for what would have been the remaining period of your Licence if it had not been terminated in accordance with this Condition C.3.
C.4 If we notify you of the suspension your Licence under Condition C.3(a) above, we will aim to notify you of the outcome of this investigation within 14 days of the suspension taking place, otherwise you will be notified of the requirement for an extension and for how long that extension will be. Following the outcome of the investigation, you will either be notified of a period in which to remedy the breach or your Licence will be terminated under Condition C.3(b).
C.5 If your Licence is terminated in accordance with this Condition C, you agree that for the remainder of what would have been the Licence period, you will not apply for a new Licence and you will remove the Boat from our Waterways. Should you apply for a new Licence during this period, we will not consider the application.
Section D. Our obligations & refunds
Currently, our terms and conditions state that: "9.1 We will do our best to keep the Waterway open for navigation, but closures may be required as a result of occasional unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or for other unavoidable reasons, we shall try to arrange our maintenance work to cause you the least disruption. This means that most work requiring closures will be done between the beginning of November and the end of March. There may be other occasions when, due to causes beyond our reasonable control, we have to close part or (exceptionally) all of the Waterway.
9.2 The Licence fees are calculated on the assumption that you will be affected by closures from time to time and accordingly refunds of Licence fees will not be made for closures as described in this Condition 9.
9.3 We exclude any liability for any damages arising from the closure of the Waterway (save for any damages arising from personal injury or death caused by our negligence)"
Issue Each year, Trust resource is spent dealing with enquiries and requests regarding Licence refunds. The Licence fee is not a guarantee of a level of service and is currently priced reasonably to allow access to Waterways owned or managed by us.
Our aged network can be challenging to maintain and often repairs can throw up unexpected issues. We do our best to minimise unplanned stoppages and to keep planned stoppages to the advertised duration.
Refunds of Licence fees would lead to funding being diverted away from other areas of the Trust, including maintenance and repair, and may also result in a need for increased Licence fees in future.
Proposed change "D.1 The Licence fee grants permission for the licensed boat to be present on Trust owned or managed Waterways. The Licence is not a guarantee of access or availability of the waterway. Refunds of Licence fees will not be made for closures as described in this Condition D.
D.2 We will do our best to keep the Waterway open for navigation. Closures may be required as a result of unforeseen events or essential maintenance and repair work. Except in emergencies or for unavoidable reasons, we shall try to arrange our maintenance work to cause you the least disruption. We will, where possible, advertise closures and indicate how long they will be in place for. This will allow licence holders to plan their cruising around closures. There may be circumstances beyond our reasonable control which mean closures over-run and we will advertise delays as quickly as possible. There may be other occasions when, due to causes beyond our reasonable control, we have to close part or (exceptionally) all of the Waterway.
D.3 We exclude any liability for any damages arising from the closure of the Waterway (save for any damages arising from personal injury or death caused by our negligence).
D.4 Refunds of Licence fees are only available for six and twelve month standard pleasure Boat Licences where the boat has been removed from the Waterway or sold to a new owner.
D.5 Refunds will not be processed until you have removed the boat from Waterways owned or managed by the Trust, or we have received your notification of change of ownership in accordance with Condition D.4.
D.6 To request a refund, you must inform us in writing and return your two Licence discs to our Boat Licensing team.
D.7 Refunds are made on a pro rata basis for whole unused months only. We calculate the number of unexpired months from the day we receive your written refund request and your two Licence discs. If you are paying by instalments, we will deduct the difference between the full Licence cost and the total amount you have already paid from the refund payment.
D.8 There is no entitlement to a refund arising out of the closure of the Waterway as described in Condition D, unless your boat has been removed from Waterways owned or managed by us.
Section E. Boat Safety Certificate
Currently, the only reference in the actual T&C’s to Boat Safety obligations is: 5.1 The Boat must comply with the Boat Safety Scheme requirements (set out in Schedule 1 below) at all times.
The remaining information is held with the schedules: There is a legal requirement for boats to comply with the Trust’s standards for construction and equipment (appended). You are responsible for making sure that the Boat is maintained so that it complies with the required standards at all times. To protect the safety of all our customers, we may operate a spot check on the fuel, gas and electrical installations on board any boat which we have reason to believe no longer meets the required standards. If we believe the Boat is dangerous, we may terminate your Licence and you will have to remove it from the Waterways. If you fail to remove the Boat from our Waterways, we can do so at your expense. When applying for a boat licence, you must produce evidence that the Boat meets these standards. Acceptable evidence is one of the following:
a) confirmation that the Boat complies with Boat Safety Scheme standards. This must be appropriate for the purpose for which the Boat is used. Please remember that any alterations, modifications or a lack of good maintenance may mean that the evidence of compliance is no longer valid; b) a current Declaration of Conformity with the EU Recreational Craft Directive which shows the specification of the Boat. This declaration must be less than four years old (one year for ‘sailaways’); c) in respect of boaters who have completed the Canal & River Trust form declaring an exemption from the Boat Safety Scheme standards, we may from time to time carry out random checks and we reserve the right to inspect the Boat and/or to require further evidence or information from such boaters to validate that the exemption applies.
Issue Boaters currently self-declare exemption from the requirement for a boat safety certificate, without further evidence, when applying for a licence. The Trust are also reliant on good faith of boaters to update on the validity of their certificate or exemption over time. Where the Trust have concerns about the validity of an exemption or a certificate, the current conditions provide limited options to address the matter.
Proposed change "E.1 The Boat must comply with the Boat Safety Scheme requirements (set out in Schedule 1 below) at all times. E.2 When applying for a boat licence you must produce evidence that the Boat meets these standards. Acceptable evidence is one of the following:
E.2.1 provision of your Boat’s valid boat safety certificate number; E.2.2 a current Declaration of Conformity with the EU Recreational Craft Directive which shows the specification of the Boat. This declaration must be less than four years old (one year for ‘sailaways’); E.2.3 declaration that the boat is exempt from the Boat Safety Scheme Standards. We may require certification of the exemption. If the Boat is exempt you will need to select the appropriate drop-down box on your online customer application form.
E.3 You should ensure that the evidence we hold in respect of your boat meeting these requirements is up to date at all times. If the evidence has expired, you must update your details via the online portal. E.4 Once your Boat is licensed, we may ask for further evidence of compliance or exemption from the Boat Safety Scheme Standards. Acceptable evidence may include, but is not limited to:
E.4.1 provision of your Boat’s valid boat safety certificate number; E.4.2 provision of photographic or video evidence that identifies your Boat and demonstrates compliance/exemption; E.4.3 completed and satisfactory inspection of your Boat by a Trust representative, within a reasonable time; E.4.4 formal certification of exemption, e.g. Certificate of decommissioning of a diesel engine or gas system; E.4.5 other satisfactory evidence that the boat is exempt from the Boat Safety Scheme Standards.
E.5 To protect the safety of all our customers, we may operate a spot check on the fuel, gas and electrical installations on board any boat which we have reason to believe no longer meets the required standards."
Section F. Wider or larger dimensioned boats
Issue Currently, we’re seeing an increase in the number of wider or larger dimensioned boats on waterways that are inappropriately sized for their use, leading to complaints, navigational obstruction and damage to our property and boats. We advertise (here) our waterway dimensions which boats on the network should comply with. Restriction of wider or larger dimension boats to certain Waterways is not expressly covered by our terms and conditions and therefore doesn't support the Trust in managing these issues.
Proposed change F.1 The boat should be fit for navigation on the Waterway where it is intended to be used.
F.2 Whilst cruising on our network, your Boat must not exceed the maximum craft dimensions for the Waterway at any time. This includes the height, draught, beam and length of your vessel and where two or more boats are cruising together, the total height, beam, draught and length of both boats in their combined cruising formation.
F.3 Maximum craft dimensions are published on our website from time to time and may be subject to change
F.4 You should ensure that you have available for immediate use proper fenders of suitable material and condition, and you should use those fenders whenever there is a risk of the boat striking against any boat, structure or object
Section G. Change of ownership
Currently, our terms and conditions state that: “7.8 You must notify us via the online portal or in writing within 14 days when you sell the Boat or transfer ownership to another person. You must tell us to whom you have sold or transferred the Boat. If you do not let us know the details of the new owner or keeper, the Boat will remain registered in your name and you will continue to be responsible for it (including payment of future Licence fees, sums payable under Conditions 6.4 and 6.5, and the costs of any related legal action).”
Issue Ambiguity about the method of informing the Trust of change of ownership can lead to insufficient information being provided in impractical ways. This can frustrate processes and cause difficulty for us when communicating with boat owners and keepers.
Proposed change "G.8 You must notify us via the online portal or by returning the “ownership and keeper transfer” form within 14 days of when you sell the Boat, transfer ownership to another person, or the keeper of the boat changes. If you cannot access this form online, our customer service team will post you a copy for completion and return. You must provide all parties’ details in the case of shared ownership. If you do not let us know the details of any new owner or keeper, the Boat will remain registered in your name and you will continue to be responsible for it (including payment of future Licence fees, sums payable under Conditions 6.4 and 6.5, and the costs of any related legal action)."
Section H. False declarations
Issue The Trust relies on the good faith of the Boat Licence applicant in relation to some key information including insurance, boat dimensions and boat usage. Where intentional false declarations are made, the Trust has no express contractual rights to manage this issue.
Proposed change H.1 When licensing your Boat, you must provide information that is true and accurate to the best of your knowledge and belief, including but not limited to:
a) the presence of an insurance policy to cover the Boat; b) the validity of the boat’s insurance policy and whether it meets the requirements of Section B; c) the existence or exemption of a Boat Safety Certificate; d) the Boat’s owners and keepers (as detailed in Condition 7); e) the dimensions of the Boat; f) the Boat’s propulsion system; g) the Boat's home mooring; h) whether the Boat is portable (‘Portable’ means that the Boat’s normal crew can, without mechanical help, launch the Boat and take it out of the water. Examples of Portable Boats include rowing boats, dinghies, canoes and light inflatable boats); i) whether the Boat holds a special status e.g. Butty, Historic, Electric etc.
H.2 If you make a false declaration or an omission believed to be intentional that leads to your Boat being licensed, or the Licence fee being calculated, based on this false declaration or omission, we may give you an opportunity to remedy the situation by providing correct information, obtaining outstanding certification or documentation or paying any outstanding fee due for the correct Licence.
Section I. Behaviour towards Trust colleagues
Sadly, there are incidents each year where our colleagues are subjected to verbal abuse, intimidation and, in some cases, physical threat or violence. We currently don’t have a specific condition of licence to protect our people from this important issue.
Issue We are not prepared to tolerate this behaviour and we currently have no express contractual wording to enable the Trust to take swift action to terminate a boat licence in these circumstances.
Proposed change I.1 You will not behave towards an employee or representative of the Canal & River Trust in a way that causes them to fear or be subjected to any violence; or feel harassed, alarmed or distressed. This may include but is not limited to swearing, threatening, harassing or aggressive behaviour or physical assault. You will not permit such behaviour from persons using your Boat.
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Post by kris on Sept 28, 2020 17:38:14 GMT
It’s this particular section I was focussing on at the min Proposed change "A1. You must cruise on the Waterways whilst away from the Home mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site). The cruise must be a genuine cruise. Minimal or repetitive movement along a short part of a Waterway or Waterways without use of the Home Mooring (nominal use of which shall be disregarded for these purposes) will not be accepted as a genuine cruise."
so thats supposed to clarify what went before?
Section A. Home Mooring requirement to "cruise"
Currently, our terms and conditions state that: “3.1 You must cruise on the Waterways whilst you are away from the Home Mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site).”
I think there is no legal clarity in the change A1 they are preposing, by trying to dictate to the minutest detail the way in which boaters use the waterway they are over stepping their remit.
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Post by Telemachus on Sept 28, 2020 17:42:35 GMT
It’s this particular section I was focussing on at the min Proposed change "A1. You must cruise on the Waterways whilst away from the Home mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site). The cruise must be a genuine cruise. Minimal or repetitive movement along a short part of a Waterway or Waterways without use of the Home Mooring (nominal use of which shall be disregarded for these purposes) will not be accepted as a genuine cruise." so thats supposed to clarify what went before? It is of course utter shite and not legally enforceable. As I took some trouble to explain to them! I understand the sentiment - they don’t want someone with a cheap mooring in a different part of the country, hogging honeypot sites eg central London. It is fair enough in principle, but badly worded and of course not legally enforceable.
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Post by kris on Sept 28, 2020 17:46:26 GMT
It’s this particular section I was focussing on at the min Proposed change "A1. You must cruise on the Waterways whilst away from the Home mooring (save for any period when you leave the Waterways or when the Boat is lawfully moored at another mooring site). The cruise must be a genuine cruise. Minimal or repetitive movement along a short part of a Waterway or Waterways without use of the Home Mooring (nominal use of which shall be disregarded for these purposes) will not be accepted as a genuine cruise." so thats supposed to clarify what went before? It is of course utter shite and not legally enforceable. As I took some trouble to explain to them! I understand the sentiment - they don’t want someone with a cheap mooring in a different part of the country, hogging honeypot sites eg central London. It is fair enough in principle, but badly worded and of course not legally enforceable. Yes but they state in the document that they aim to bring clarity. The worrisome thing, is that it looks like cart are trying to remove boats without ever going into a court. As they are claiming it will be an internal process to determine if someone has breached the t&c’s.
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