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Post by Deleted on Oct 1, 2020 7:15:40 GMT
Thanks Tony.
No point in going for the first option, as nothing will actually change for anyone other than me - not worth the hassle.
Second option was what I/we were hoping for but as you have pointed out, this is far more complex than we first thought. I expect our plan/hopes come to nothing.
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Post by Jim on Oct 1, 2020 8:21:06 GMT
Is there a way of accepting the t&cs under duress, accepting that pragmatically one needs a licence and not being in a position to challenge but flagging up the fact that the T&cs bear no legal weight, the Act overruling them?
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Post by Allan on Oct 1, 2020 9:47:18 GMT
Is there a way of accepting the t&cs under duress, accepting that pragmatically one needs a licence and not being in a position to challenge but flagging up the fact that the T&cs bear no legal weight, the Act overruling them? As far as I am aware, The National Association of Boat Owners is the only body to take counsel's advice with regard to CRT terms and conditions and change proposals. The advice was mixed but suffice to say the view was that T&C's were to a large extent unenforceable in law due to the BW 1995 Act which limits the circumstances in which a licence can be refused or revoked.
The advice to members who were still concerned about agreeing to T's and C's was to use a form of words that agreed to T&C's but only to the extent that they were supported by law. This would only apply to postal applications which I suspect are few and far between nowadays.
Anecdotally, instances exist of boaters refusing to agree T's & C's when licencing by phone.
Not sure with an online application that one can circumvent agreeing but I suppose that you could communicate afterwards.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 1, 2020 17:33:02 GMT
I believe it was OnionBargee who said that you can write on the form something like: "I only agree to these Terms & Conditions because I am forced to in order to gain a licence, and on the understanding that CRT recognise that these T&Cs do not replace the Acts of Parliament on which navigation is based".
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Post by thebfg on Oct 2, 2020 1:04:21 GMT
I believe it was OnionBargee who said that you can write on the form something like: "I only agree to these Terms & Conditions because I am forced to in order to gain a licence, and on the understanding that CRT recognise that these T&Cs do not replace the Acts of Parliament on which navigation is based". Did we ever find out how he got on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 5:59:23 GMT
Thanks Tony.
No point in going for the first option, as nothing will actually change for anyone other than me - not worth the hassle.
Second option was what I/we were hoping for but as you have pointed out, this is far more complex than we first thought. I expect our plan/hopes come to nothing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 7:56:36 GMT
I believe it was OnionBargee who said that you can write on the form something like: "I only agree to these Terms & Conditions because I am forced to in order to gain a licence, and on the understanding that CRT recognise that these T&Cs do not replace the Acts of Parliament on which navigation is based". Did we ever find out how he got on. I was wondering about him recently. I think the old boat tadworth was sold so I guess Richard is probably still about somewhere on the Grand Union which was his local area. Not been past Rickmansworth myself for years.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 8:42:07 GMT
I believe it was OnionBargee who said that you can write on the form something like: "I only agree to these Terms & Conditions because I am forced to in order to gain a licence, and on the understanding that CRT recognise that these T&Cs do not replace the Acts of Parliament on which navigation is based". Did we ever find out how he got on. He got Tamworth back. Cruised with it for a while and sold it about a year later. He's still about.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 2, 2020 14:24:07 GMT
Did we ever find out how he got on. Not been past Rickmansworth myself for years. Are there any other parts of the canal system you haven't been for years?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 2, 2020 14:46:52 GMT
Yes. I stopped extensive canal cruising in 2008 when I sold my last narrow boat.
Still on the cut part of the time but to be honest I have no interest whatsoever in doing any more canal locks anywhere, ever in my life. Just can't be arsed and currently not nearly physically fit enough to manage it even if I could be arsed..
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 22, 2020 6:14:44 GMT
Now I know there are arguments about the legality of CRT enforcing the T and Cs of your licence, but they are now proposing changes to some of the T and Cs.
Some changes seem quite draconian to me, what about you?
Having suspected it for some time, I've come to the conclusion in the last few days that to direct time or effort into opposing changes to C&RT's 'wish list' Licence T&C's is a completely pointless exercise ! There are fresh developments in my long running wrangle with the Trust over the fictitious 'Rivers only Licence' it issues in place of the statutory registration certificate, . . the 'Pleasure Boat Certificate' that was introduced via the 1971 BW Act to replace the old system of paying tolls for each and every passage through locks on PRN river waterways. These recent developments have demonstrated beyond any doubt that, far from being content with amending their largely unenforceable T&C's every year or so to keep them in step with their ever increasing corporate megalomania, C&RT's licensing and legal staff are in fact quite prepared to make, and DO make, 'off the cuff' additions or amendments to any of the rules or procedures published on their website, as and whenever the need arises, or it is expedient so to do. Where is the point in opposing advertised formal changes to published rules or procedures when office staff are permitted, encouraged even, to tailor those rules and procedures to their own instananeous agendas ?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2020 6:20:44 GMT
I've already had this treatment. My residential mooring (CRT) was 22m when I originally bid for it, I pay for a 22m X 4.2m berth.
I put a 17.4 X 3.6m boat on it and now it is apparently a 17.4 X 3.6m berth. Same mooring fee. I do have confirmation from a previous mooring manager in an email that it was a 22m berth but that "means nothing".
They just make it up as they go along and if you disagree then the tone is that you will be evicted.
Waste of time trying to do anything about it, the key is to get away from water which is CRT managed.
That's my ambition now. I know due to region this is not practical for a lot of people.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 9:22:59 GMT
I note CRT has been “fiddling” with its website again.
Before you buy a long term boat licence you will need:
“To read the boat licence terms and conditions – it’s the legal bit!
Insurance
A Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) certificate”
Of course, it should read as:
(1) the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel;
(2) an insurance policy is in force in respect of the vessel and a copy of the policy, or evidence that it exists and is in force, has been produced to the Board; and
(3) either—
(i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; or
(ii)the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances.
No mention of a license??
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 3, 2020 11:43:23 GMT
I note CRT has been “fiddling” with its website again. Before you buy a long term boat licence you will need: “To read the boat licence terms and conditions – it’s the legal bit! Insurance A Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) certificate” Of course, it should read as: (1) the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel; (2) an insurance policy is in force in respect of the vessel and a copy of the policy, or evidence that it exists and is in force, has been produced to the Board; and (3) either— (i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; or (ii)the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances. No mention of a license?? Or licence even! The term “relevant consent” means, for the canals, a licence, and for rivers, a registration / PBC. But you knew that.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2020 12:17:04 GMT
I note CRT has been “fiddling” with its website again. Before you buy a long term boat licence you will need: “To read the boat licence terms and conditions – it’s the legal bit! Insurance A Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) certificate” Of course, it should read as: (1) the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel complies with the standards applicable to that vessel; (2) an insurance policy is in force in respect of the vessel and a copy of the policy, or evidence that it exists and is in force, has been produced to the Board; and (3) either— (i)the Board are satisfied that a mooring or other place where the vessel can reasonably be kept and may lawfully be left will be available for the vessel, whether on an inland waterway or elsewhere; or (ii)the applicant for the relevant consent satisfies the Board that the vessel to which the application relates will be used bona fide for navigation throughout the period for which the consent is valid without remaining continuously in any one place for more than 14 days or such longer period as is reasonable in the circumstances. No mention of a license?? Or licence even! The term “relevant consent” means, for the canals, a licence, and for rivers, a registration / PBC. But you knew that. Consent meaning noun permission for something to happen or agreement to do something no mention of license-licence in that either.
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