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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 18:27:22 GMT
Centre lines aren't really ideal for tying up with. Ok for occasional use but not really appropriate for mooring. I'm not trying to use the centre line to moor the boat as such, but rather to keep it stationary alongside the bank for a few minutes, whilst I secure the bow and stern properly. So its just a first step thing. Can't you use your bow thruster to do that?
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Post by brummieboy on Oct 15, 2020 18:40:48 GMT
If you have nappy pins with a length of rope already attached, and you are approaching piling, then if you pull up to a stop with the stern in, step off with the nappy pin and put it in the piling and lash it loosely back on the cleat/dolly. Put the boat in tickover forwards and walk to the bow taking your centre line if it is a little windy. The bow will pull itself in to the bank and you can then tie it, adjusting your ropes afterwards to suit. You can do the same with rings with your mooring ropes if you take a loop through the ring rather than the end of the rope.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 15, 2020 20:22:46 GMT
Before getting extra T-studs/cleats or anything similar welded on anywhere, you can make life easier, and safer, for yourself with some radical changes in the way you're handling the ropes, and the boat itself. The change will need to be away from what has become standard pleasure boat practices and towards handling the boat and it's lines and ropes in a fashion more reminiscent of working boat practices. There were x 5 attachment points for lines and ropes on a working/commercial motor narrowboat, and the positioning of x 4 of them along the length of the boat were the same as horse-drawn boats or the 'buttys' that worked as a pair with the motors. The 5th attachment point on a 'motor' was what was known as a 'back-end rail' and was situated on the bulkhead between the engine-room and the hold, roughly between a quarter to a third of the overall length from the stern, . . and that's where these centre-line attachments found on today's pleasure craft should be ! The two extra cleats/T-studs will be a very useful addition, but they need to go on each gunwhale in a position corresponding with a working motor's back-end rail rather than either side up forard and a little way aft of the T-stud. You can do away with having to either lean a long way out over the water's edge, or get back on board, when you're tying-off on the T-stud by putting a 6'-7' [3' 0''- 3' 6'' long] eye in the forard line with a bowline and then dropping the eye onto the T-stud with a Cow Hitch. All you need to do then is pass the line round or through whatever you got on the shore, back through the shore end of the eye before pulling tight and making it off ashore instead of onboard. Meantime the same procedure, without the Cow Hitch, can be used with the centre line to get it tight, . . but I'll guarantee that once you've got a couple of cleats on each gunwhale around a quarter of the boat's length from the stern, and you've learned how to use a stop rope or springs on them, you'll never bother messing about with a centre line again ! Thanks very much Tony, this is a lot of detail, and it sounds like it will make easier, quicker and safer to get moored securely. I must admit I had considered having cleats welded onto the gunwales, but I hesitated because I cant remember seeing any on other boats, which usually means there's a snag I haven't spotted. I wondered f I might be prone to hitting them with my feet when walking along the sides and holding on to to roof rail- particularly because on the odd occasion I do that, I'm usually focused on where my hands are, and on holding the centre line or whatever I'm carrying. But it does seem that the risk of kicking one occasionally is outweighed by the benefits of having extra securing options. Can I just check something- if I understood that right, you describe the option of taking a mooring line from the boat back to the shore and tying off there. With say a mooring ring, what knot would you use to secure the rope to the mooring ring, once you've led it back to there? An alternative to cleats, or T-studs, on each gunwhale aft would be what were known as 'answer pins' on working motor narrowboats ['motors']. They were simply forged eyes standing up a couple of inches above the gunwhale that you put a biggish D-shackle onto with either the (short) eye of a thickish rope (known as an 'uphill strap', and for reasons which I won't go into here, used mostly on the butty rather than the motor) or a short length of similar rope with an eye each end to drop over the butty's 'tunnel hook' when travelling abreast. They would be just as easy to trip over until you got used used to them being there, which takes a surprisingly short amount of time, but at least there's no chance of getting your foot caught under them, . . which can happen with the top cross piece of a cleat or T-stud. As for the bow ('fore-end' in working narrowboat parlance) line, . . you wouldn't make/tie off the line on a ring or on one of these hook or chain gadgets that are used on steel piled canal banks these days. You pass it through the ring again after pulling it tight through the shore end of the long eye from the T-stud and then make it off part way along on the, now triple, standing part of the line with a Rolling Hitch.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 15, 2020 20:37:56 GMT
If you have nappy pins with a length of rope already attached, and you are approaching piling, then if you pull up to a stop with the stern in, step off with the nappy pin and put it in the piling and lash it loosely back on the cleat/dolly. Put the boat in tickover forwards and walk to the bow taking your centre line if it is a little windy. The bow will pull itself in to the bank and you can then tie it, adjusting your ropes afterwards to suit. You can do the same with rings with your mooring ropes if you take a loop through the ring rather than the end of the rope. Getting the stern in hard to the bank and ignoring where the fore-end is going is the right way to do it, but only works from cleats, T-studs, or best of all 'answer pins' and a big D-shackle on the gunwhale around a quarter to a third of the boat's length from the stern. If you leave the prop turning ahead against a stop rope (effectively a spring) from one of the dollies on the counter, all it will do is to send the fore-end away from the bank and out across the cut.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 20:55:42 GMT
Thanks very much Tony, this is a lot of detail, and it sounds like it will make easier, quicker and safer to get moored securely. I must admit I had considered having cleats welded onto the gunwales, but I hesitated because I cant remember seeing any on other boats, which usually means there's a snag I haven't spotted. I wondered f I might be prone to hitting them with my feet when walking along the sides and holding on to to roof rail- particularly because on the odd occasion I do that, I'm usually focused on where my hands are, and on holding the centre line or whatever I'm carrying. But it does seem that the risk of kicking one occasionally is outweighed by the benefits of having extra securing options. Can I just check something- if I understood that right, you describe the option of taking a mooring line from the boat back to the shore and tying off there. With say a mooring ring, what knot would you use to secure the rope to the mooring ring, once you've led it back to there? An alternative to cleats, or T-studs, on each gunwhale aft would be what were known as 'answer pins' on working motor narrowboats ['motors']. They were simply forged eyes standing up a couple of inches above the gunwhale that you put a biggish D-shackle onto with either the (short) eye of a thickish rope (known as an 'uphill strap') or a short length of similar rope with an eye each end to drop over the butty's 'tunnel hook' when travelling abreast. They would be just as easy to trip over until you got used used to them being there, which takes a surprisingly short amount of time, but at least there's no chance of getting your foot caught under them, . . which can happen with the top cross piece of a cleat or T-stud. As for the bow ('fore-end' in working narrowboat parlance) line, . . you wouldn't make/tie off the line on a ring or on one of these hook or chain gadgets that are used on steel piled canal banks these days. You pass it through the ring again after pulling it tight through the shore end of the long eye from the T-stud and then make it off part way along on the, now triple, standing part of the line with a Rolling Hitch. I must confess Tony, as a newbie I dont know what a rolling hitch is, but I'll take a look. I suspect that typically, beginners seem to pick up that a cleat hitch is a handy knot for the bow cleat, and a canalmans hitch is a quick and secure knot for the posts on the stern- but after that its a vast unknown. I've been doing some research, and learned mooring hitches, constrictor knots (which were great until I tried to undo them), clove hitches and various bowlines. Today I checked out the cow hitch (?), and now I'll take a look at the rolling hitch. It seems you can never know too many knots with a watercraft.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 21:12:51 GMT
Anser pin on a Grand Union motor. This is an item of deck hardware which I have always been surprised is often not added to even good quality properly made modern traditional style narrow boats. It's a very handy fixture point to have and doesn't really get in the way. If I ever get a narrow boat again I will definitely look at getting them fitted but it wants doing properly not just a welded on fitting as the weld would be liable to break at the wrong moment. Ideally I'd like the eye part to go through the side deck and be welded all around on both sides and a reinforcement plate added on the inside. The tripping hazard is a valid point but two things : firstly it is a small eye with a shackle which lies flat so not very tall and secondly it is positioned in such a way that you will be stepping over it rather than stepping into it.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 21:20:03 GMT
The knots, bends and hitches I use the most arrrr bowline, round turn and two half hitches, butterfly knot (lineman's rider), lightermans/tugboat hitch and occasionally a clove hitch done three times rather than two for a quick hitch to a mooring pin. Clove hitches are not secure. Handy for temporary use but basically unsafe.
My favourite is the lightermans hitch. Such a good way to drop a rope over a bollard allowing it to be easily released even under load. Nice simple satisfactory hitch rapid to deploy and pleasant.
The lineman's rider is a nice fast loop in the standing part of a rope without needing access to either end. I use this to provide an attachment point half way along a length so when coming back with the bitter end you can pull it through the loop and get mechanical advantage.
The other one is the truckers hitch which is a similar principle different formation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 21:34:44 GMT
Anser pin on a Grand Union motor. This is an item of deck hardware which I have always been surprised is often not added to even good quality properly made modern traditional style narrow boats. It's a very handy fixture point to have and doesn't really get in the way. If I ever get a narrow boat again I will definitely look at getting them fitted but it wants doing properly not just a welded on fitting as the weld would be liable to break at the wrong moment. Ideally I'd like the eye part to go through the side deck and be welded all around on both sides and a reinforcement plate added on the inside. The tripping hazard is a valid point but two things : firstly it is a small eye with a shackle which lies flat so not very tall and secondly it is positioned in such a way that you will be stepping over it rather than stepping into it. I agree, these anser pins look a great idea, and much reduce the potential tripping hazard compared to a T stud. I must apologise here, I didnt quite grasp all of Tony's explanation of how you tie up using one of these things. E.g. If I fitted one to the gunwale in the centre of the boat, I could take the centre line through a nappy pin and lead it back and through the shackle. After doing that, is this where the rolling hitch comes into play as the knot that will secure the line? Is the idea that you secure the rope to itself- i.e. you dont tie a knot onto to a cleat or stud?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2020 21:44:46 GMT
I was slightly baffled by the way he described it too.
Edited as needs pictures.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 7:42:33 GMT
Anser pin on a Grand Union motor. This is an item of deck hardware which I have always been surprised is often not added to even good quality properly made modern traditional style narrow boats. It's a very handy fixture point to have and doesn't really get in the way. If I ever get a narrow boat again I will definitely look at getting them fitted but it wants doing properly not just a welded on fitting as the weld would be liable to break at the wrong moment. Ideally I'd like the eye part to go through the side deck and be welded all around on both sides and a reinforcement plate added on the inside. The tripping hazard is a valid point but two things : firstly it is a small eye with a shackle which lies flat so not very tall and secondly it is positioned in such a way that you will be stepping over it rather than stepping into it. I agree, these anser pins look a great idea, and much reduce the potential tripping hazard compared to a T stud. I must apologise here, I didnt quite grasp all of Tony's explanation of how you tie up using one of these things. E.g. If I fitted one to the gunwale in the centre of the boat, I could take the centre line through a nappy pin and lead it back and through the shackle. After doing that, is this where the rolling hitch comes into play as the knot that will secure the line? Is the idea that you secure the rope to itself- i.e. you dont tie a knot onto to a cleat or stud? As I said earlier (not explained well) just take the bight of the rope back towards the boat and tie it to itself with a couple of half hitches. No need for extra hardware. For the avoidance of doubt the "bight" is the middle of the rope in a loop. Ill try again Pass a loop of the centre line through a mooring ring, pull until the bit between the boat and ring is tight then tie the loop back onto the tight part of the rope using a couple of half hitches. You don't need to use the end of the rope to tie off. I have been doing it like this for years it does need a decent rope and not a piece of string.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 16, 2020 7:52:42 GMT
There are more questions than ansers.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 16, 2020 8:13:56 GMT
Anser pin on a Grand Union motor. This is an item of deck hardware which I have always been surprised is often not added to even good quality properly made modern traditional style narrow boats. It's a very handy fixture point to have and doesn't really get in the way. If I ever get a narrow boat again I will definitely look at getting them fitted but it wants doing properly not just a welded on fitting as the weld would be liable to break at the wrong moment. Ideally I'd like the eye part to go through the side deck and be welded all around on both sides and a reinforcement plate added on the inside. The tripping hazard is a valid point but two things : firstly it is a small eye with a shackle which lies flat so not very tall and secondly it is positioned in such a way that you will be stepping over it rather than stepping into it. I agree, these anser pins look a great idea, and much reduce the potential tripping hazard compared to a T stud. I must apologise here, I didnt quite grasp all of Tony's explanation of how you tie up using one of these things. E.g. If I fitted one to the gunwale in the centre of the boat, I could take the centre line through a nappy pin and lead it back and through the shackle. After doing that, is this where the rolling hitch comes into play as the knot that will secure the line? Is the idea that you secure the rope to itself- i.e. you dont tie a knot onto to a cleat or stud? Don't worry, Tony, it's a lot to take in all at one go, and most of what I've posted has been in the sense of a broad outline of what is a very detailed and complex subject, . . which can't be at all easy for someone new to it all to grasp after quickly reading through what was only quite a scanty explanation. I think Andrew ( Magnetman) will be able to help with some photo's/sketches/diagrams etc. of knots, hitches, and working boats, but the biggest problem we're up against is that nothing on the common everyday working methods and practices that went with long distance commercial carrying before it came to a final end on the canals in 1970 was ever written down or properly documented. It didn't need to be, . . because it was passed on by word of mouth, daily use, and custom from generation to generation of working boatmen and women, a good many of whom could neither read nor write in any case. The net result of the half a century of complete change from commercial to pleasure boating on the smaller, or 'narrow' canals, including those with 'double' (14'+ wide locks) as opposed to 'single' (7'+ wide locks) is that a whole new approach to every aspect of boating with completely different methods has replaced the old ways. Whereas the working/carrying boat methods and techniques I had to learn evolved through many generations from the necessity for the most rapid progress along the canal with the minimum of effort, . . looking at the methods and techniques that have evolved with the growth and complete takeover of pleasure boating from the commercial, I'm left with the distinct impression that, knowing no better, most pleasure boaters go about handling their boats with a view to making unnecessarily hard, and slow, work out of everything whilst at the same time frequently exposing themselves to the unnecessary and avoidable risk of injury, . . or worse. Jumping, instead of stepping, on or off moving boats clutching ropes, and engaging in a towpath tug-of-war via one of those wretched centre lines are but two common examples ! Anyway, . . enough of the gospel according to me for the moment, . . I think the best way forward with this is to answer your original query first so you can make the best and safest use out what you've got at present in terms of your boat's layout and deck fittings, . . and I reckon we should start with making sure we're all on the same page with knots and hitches, and talking about exactly the same thing. In post#1 you mentioned a ''Cleat Hitch'' and a "Canalman's Hitch". Neither of these are names I'm familiar with, so can you or anyone else, Andrew perhaps, post a photo or drawing of these. Photo's or drawings of a Cow Hitch, a Rolling Hitch, a Sheet Bend, and a Bowline Bend would also be useful. There are two ways of making a Bowline Bend, with the rope-end inside the bight/eye or the rope-end outside the bight/eye. The former is OK for use at sea, but the latter with the rope-end outside the eye is the one for canal or river use, . . for either forming an eye in a heavy(-ish) rope for throwing over a shore bollard from on board on the rare occasions that needs to be done from a small/narrow canalboat, or for passing the standing part of a (lighter) line through to run more easily and tighten with the bight/eye under tension.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 8:22:47 GMT
I used to have a copy of the Ashley book of knots but sadly it was a very poorly bound modern book and it fell apart.
I'm sure that it claimed that the bowline with the end on the outside (Cowboy bowline) was weaker than the one with the end on the inside.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2020 8:25:46 GMT
For pictures all these things can be google image searched.
Another one I use for mooring pins is a marlinspike hitch. An incredibly simple hitch to drop over a pin. It's not always ideal as can not be released under load and you have to get it the right way around but it's a useful one to know.
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Post by TonyDunkley on Oct 16, 2020 8:25:50 GMT
I agree, these anser pins look a great idea, and much reduce the potential tripping hazard compared to a T stud. I must apologise here, I didnt quite grasp all of Tony's explanation of how you tie up using one of these things. E.g. If I fitted one to the gunwale in the centre of the boat, I could take the centre line through a nappy pin and lead it back and through the shackle. After doing that, is this where the rolling hitch comes into play as the knot that will secure the line? Is the idea that you secure the rope to itself- i.e. you dont tie a knot onto to a cleat or stud? As I said earlier (not explained well) just take the bight of the rope back towards the boat and tie it to itself with a couple of half hitches. No need for extra hardware. Two half-hitches round the standing part can slip under intermittent or 'snatch' loading. A Rolling Hitch - which is two half-hitches with the first one taking two turns round the standing part instead of only one - is more reliable, and if made carefully and correctly with all the turns set hard up against each other, will never slip.
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