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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 16:49:00 GMT
One of the key things that affect people's views on the paranormal is how one views the state of our understanding of the universe (and whatever is beyond the universe). My own view is that as a species, we should never forget that we have only been able to leave the surface of the earth in powered flight for the 150-200 years, from all of our millions of years of evolution. Bearing that in mind, I cannot accept any assumption- with our relatively primitive and still developing technologies- that we now understand all of the forces at work in the universe (or the multiverse, perhaps). Barely 50 years ago cosmologists thought that the expansion of the universe was slowing down, and that it was eventually going to contract again (and perhaps form another big bang), but now they believe it will continue to expand, and will end its life as a cold, empty place. It wasn't so long long ago that we realised galaxies are actually accelerating away from each other at an increasing rate, and cosmologists realised there was a previously unknown force pushing galaxies apart. They called it dark energy, to correspond to dark matter. They can't detect it, or prove its existence, so in my view, at the moment they are not that much further advanced (in terms of their understanding of the universe expanding) than the ancient peoples who assumed that the sky was some sort of dome above us, and the sun was a chap in an airborne chariot flying across the sky. Who is to say that in another 100 years, mankind will not make another discovery that will fundamentally change our understanding of what this universe is, and how it functions? We don't yet know what we don't know, is the way I would phrase it. But these guesses are either proved or disproved on the basis of evidence (like ether and the planet Vulcan) and discounted or accepted as fact accordingly. There has been serious study into water divining, as Stabby's cut'n'paste shows, and it has found to be, to use a scientific term, bollocks. Or, to use a favourite term of Dr. Cox, 'woo-woo'. I'm not making a specific defence of the belief in water divination, but just a wider point that we don't yet fully know how our universe works, and all of the forces within it (and I guess without it as well). I don't know what did cause the numerous unusual events that I and others in my house jointly witnessed, but I'm satisfied that our current scientific knowledge can not explain it in a way that I can accept as being a credible explanation. So I refuse to rule out the existence of paranormal forces as a possible explanation, and to accept the assumption that we know everything there is to know abut our world. Because we clearly don't.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 16:50:55 GMT
Irrelevant, I have seen it with my own eyes and done it myself. I've also done it to find the line of a culvert in recent years. Then perhaps you should have been prepared to demonstrate this under controlled conditions and won the $10,000 prize that was on offer for anyone able to do so. To say "I have seen it with my own eyes" is not evidence, many people have seen God with their own eyes. Finding a culvert is simply an example of the confirmation bias I referred to earlier, whereby ground clues indicate the course of the culvert. It is a pseudoscience. Nobody has EVER been able to demonstrate that it is a thing under controlled conditions, the claim that water can be found underground without the use of scientific equipment is universally accepted by scientists as nonsense and only a clown would think otherwise. I was told a stream ran under the bar floor. Other people were there having a go at divining when I stopped to ask if they could fill my water bottle - I was cycling from Dedham back to Chelmsford. The landlady assisted me at first, she had one hand on one side of the fork of the stick whilst I had the other. I thought she might have been twisting it and asked if I could try it on my own, which I did. As I say, the force pulling the stick down was surprisingly strong. We shall have to go back to Coggeshall one day to check this out, eh? Next you'll be telling me my ghost story is nonsense. But I was there. And you weren't.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 16:54:32 GMT
Its time we got rid of locks, they cause so many issues, look at the middlewich breach, locks fault.. and I hate doing them, well I say that, I hate long flights on hot days when I have to be somewhere which is usually a pub. Replace with mini Anderton boat lifts, sit back open another beer and enjoy the canals as they should be. Why don't you just park your boat up in a pub then?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 23, 2020 16:59:40 GMT
Then perhaps you should have been prepared to demonstrate this under controlled conditions and won the $10,000 prize that was on offer for anyone able to do so. To say "I have seen it with my own eyes" is not evidence, many people have seen God with their own eyes. Finding a culvert is simply an example of the confirmation bias I referred to earlier, whereby ground clues indicate the course of the culvert. It is a pseudoscience. Nobody has EVER been able to demonstrate that it is a thing under controlled conditions, the claim that water can be found underground without the use of scientific equipment is universally accepted by scientists as nonsense and only a clown would think otherwise. I was told a stream ran under the bar floor. Other people were there having a go at divining when I stopped to ask if they could fill my water bottle - I was cycling from Dedham back to Chelmsford. The landlady assisted me at first, she had one hand on one side of the fork of the stick whilst I had the other. I thought she might have been twisting it and asked if I could try it on my own, which I did. As I say, the force pulling the stick down was surprisingly strong. So in other words the landlady had already shown you where the stream was when you "divined" it?
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 17:01:10 GMT
Having seen a water diviner tracking old field drains, I believe it works. The alternative explanation, that the diviner had seen old (possibly non existent) maps, and was in telepathic communication with the (long dead) workers who installed them, plus had built in GPS, seems less likely. Occam's razor and all that. With my personal experience there could have been no foreknowledge. The doubting Thomases are in full cry today, can't even get the divining rods right, wooden twigs, 😂😂😂😂. Keep up at the back. L shaped metal rods 3" x 12" ish leg lengths. A gas welding rod cut in half. Hold one in each hand, rods parallel to each other and floor. Walk forwards, when you cross the drain the rods align with the drain. Go on try it Mr Stabby is offering £10k. Shanners would tell him what's what but she's feeling a bit flat, empty and light headed today. I often cross small rivers in my bus. I could ask one of the passengers to stand up in the aisle with divining stick (stick works for me - willow? hazel?) and see if it dips down as I am crossing these rivulets. As for "Physics is well understood" - how about Quantum Physics? And, I assume Stabby is meaning "in this dimension of Space/Time".
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 17:04:03 GMT
I was told a stream ran under the bar floor. Other people were there having a go at divining when I stopped to ask if they could fill my water bottle - I was cycling from Dedham back to Chelmsford. The landlady assisted me at first, she had one hand on one side of the fork of the stick whilst I had the other. I thought she might have been twisting it and asked if I could try it on my own, which I did. As I say, the force pulling the stick down was surprisingly strong. So in other words the landlady had already shown you where the stream was when you "divined" it? Yes, but as you know, I am a cynical fucker and want to see things for myself. I did, and am satisfied that what I experienced was real. I am not claiming divining really works... but I would happily give it another go to see if it does or not. It was a 'private party', as in those days pubs were not open after 2pm on a Sunday.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 17:06:19 GMT
But these guesses are either proved or disproved on the basis of evidence (like ether and the planet Vulcan) and discounted or accepted as fact accordingly. There has been serious study into water divining, as Stabby's cut'n'paste shows, and it has found to be, to use a scientific term, bollocks. Or, to use a favourite term of Dr. Cox, 'woo-woo'. I'm not making a specific defence of the belief in water divination, but just a wider point that we don't yet fully know how our universe works, and all of the forces within it (and I guess without it as well). I don't know what did cause the numerous unusual events that I and others in my house jointly witnessed, but I'm satisfied that our current scientific knowledge can not explain it in a way that I can accept as being a credible explanation. So I refuse to rule out the existence of paranormal forces as a possible explanation, and to accept the assumption that we know everything there is to know abut our world. Because we clearly don't. Its a fair contention. The universe is a big place. Show me a ghost and I'll back you all the way. So would Brian, I imagine. Although if dark matter turns out to be fallacious, what replaces it will be sensational.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Oct 23, 2020 17:09:51 GMT
So in other words the landlady had already shown you where the stream was when you "divined" it? Yes, but as you know, I am a cynical fucker and want to see things for myself. I did, and am satisfied that what I experienced was real. I am not claiming divining really works... but I would happily give it another go to see if it does or not. It was a 'private party', as in those days pubs were not open after 2pm on a Sunday. Look, it's a free country and you are at liberty to believe in God, or astrology, or biorhythms, or astral projection, or that the earth is flat and the moon is made from green cheese, or that underground water can be detected using sticks or welding rods if you choose so to do. Science says you are wrong.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 17:09:58 GMT
One of the key things that affect people's views on the paranormal is how one views the state of our understanding of the universe (and whatever is beyond the universe). Although I think ghosts are a load of old cobblers and would happily sleep in any graveyard in a tent, I have experienced 'water divining' and would say there's definitely something in it. I have never seen a ghost. (although I do like ghost stories round the camp fire inside the Youth Hostel at 10pm after a few whiskies).
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 17:14:32 GMT
But these guesses are either proved or disproved on the basis of evidence (like ether and the planet Vulcan) and discounted or accepted as fact accordingly. There has been serious study into water divining, as Stabby's cut'n'paste shows, and it has found to be, to use a scientific term, bollocks. Or, to use a favourite term of Dr. Cox, 'woo-woo'. So I refuse to rule out the existence of paranormal forces as a possible explanation, and to accept the assumption that we know everything there is to know abut our world. A good scientist would never assume something to be 100% certain. Even Richard Dawkins, he of 'The God Delusion', says you can't prove 100% that there is no God.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 17:16:37 GMT
Yes, but as you know, I am a cynical fucker and want to see things for myself. I did, and am satisfied that what I experienced was real. I am not claiming divining really works... but I would happily give it another go to see if it does or not. It was a 'private party', as in those days pubs were not open after 2pm on a Sunday. Science says you are wrong. Then it's not science. Proper scientists allow for aberrations. If you want to "follow the Science" then you'll be first in line for the Chinese/Russian/Oxford vaccination... yes?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 18:14:32 GMT
So I refuse to rule out the existence of paranormal forces as a possible explanation, and to accept the assumption that we know everything there is to know abut our world. A good scientist would never assume something to be 100% certain. Even Richard Dawkins, he of 'The God Delusion', says you can't prove 100% that there is no God. I absolutely agree with Dawkins on a few key things- firstly that humans do have an innate emotional need for a God to exist, secondly that this need has been exploited down the millennia by all sorts of religious figures, and thirdly that religious beliefs are probably the biggest force for creating hatred and evil that has probably ever existed. For these reasons I absolutely refuse to accept any single religion as being the 'correct' one (although I have a soft spot for parts of Buddhism). For some reason I cannot fathom, human beings do not seem to be able to understand that the religious beliefs they hold onto so tightly are almost entirely dependent on what part of the world they were born in- and are therefore an accident of fate. The devout American evangelist preacher, were he to have been transported to Iran at the age of 3, would have grown up to believe just as devoutly in Islam. And vice versa. Anything that a human being tries to tell me about God I treat with utter scepticism. But still, I am left trying to explain my unusual/paranormal events. And as long as I have to hold the door open to the belief that there are more forces in existence than we yet know about, I therefore also have to hold the door open for the possible existence of a higher consciousness of some kind. It just seems the rational thing to do- which is where I disagree with Dawkins.
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 18:31:53 GMT
I'm not religious - so have avoided all kinds of unnecessary grief during my lifetime. Just slipped through ignoring it all. Although it's hard to ignore Islam when you're at a music festival in Manchester.
What I don't get is this, that in Court you're supposed to swear on 'The Bible' - a book of lies and invention!
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Post by naughtyfox on Oct 23, 2020 18:42:44 GMT
A good scientist would never assume something to be 100% certain. Even Richard Dawkins, he of 'The God Delusion', says you can't prove 100% that there is no God. But still, I am left trying to explain my unusual/paranormal events. There was a conversation on Canalworld about 5 years ago... Innisfree was one of the main contributors... about this age-old puzzle: Who Am I? Now that Nemesis has jumped aboard, and is an intelligent chap, perhaps he can come up with something? Or you, Tony? My outlook here is indeed "Who am I? Where have I come from?" - yes, there is my body, and my personality may have been influenced from my surroundings & upbringing - but - where has my 'mind/personality' come from?' Is it just a mixture of genetics? Couldn't another someone/mind have been 'born' into my body? Where have "I" come from? It does feel as if the mind is different from the body. Is it just a projection stemming from a higher intelligence? Like an 'aura'? It does feel as if there is only one of 'me'. I see, on reading about this (the limited material that there is), that others have been puzzled throughout History. And when I die, that's me gone. Forever. ...or... is it??!! Have I lived before? -I certainly don't remember anything like that. Anyways, bed time now... after a couple of beers and whiskies... as the saying goes: I drink, therefore I am. I'm drunk, therefore I was!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 23, 2020 18:44:12 GMT
I think therefore I can't thwim.
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