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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 25, 2020 7:47:10 GMT
There might be other power being used that you're not immediately aware of. Do you have an inverter, is it permanently switched on? Do you have a t.v. and if so, is it on standby all night? Thanks Ricco, yes I leave the inverter on all the time, although the only mains appliance (sometimes) left on is the fridge. I dont have a TV at the moment. The previous owner's advice was that he just left the inverter on at all times, so I stuck to that. I guess my thinking was that if I start the evening with say 100ah of charge, it should be ok to leave the inverter on overnight. I want to leave the fridge on overnight if possible, as I don't think it helps food preservation if you raise and lower the temperature by a big margin twice a day. But with winter fast approaching, and with me about to start cruising less often after I reach Cheshire, I need to get to grips with understanding and managing my electrics better. Strange, I met a boater with more or less identical concerns to you earlier this year on the Macc. He had this horrendously loud frame generator and was running it for hours every day. He didn't know when his batteries were charged and he too was concerned that he was waking up to 12.5 having run the generator until 8.00 p.m., then used little power before retiring to bed. First, I checked amps in with my meter and compared to battery capacities to establish when batteries were more or less charged. The boater could then refer to his volt meter (everything switched off) to establish when his batteries were fully charged. Next I suggested he try turning his inverter off before going to bed. Result? 12.7v in the morning, and one very happy boater, who was about to dump his more than likely still serviceable batteries.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 7:54:02 GMT
As usual there's very little Telemachus has overlooked. However you are quoting voltages but is this from your own testmeter or from something installed in the boat and if so are you sure of it's accuracy ? only mention it because on my little narrow cruiser there is fixed el cheapo digital voltage meter reading to 1 decimal point that has an error of just under 0.1V .............. enough to skew the readings ........... I know this and allow for it so have never bothered to correct. Thanks John- yes I'm reading from the volts displayed on the main 'distrubution' panel that houses all of the switches for the 12 equipment. I should measure at the batteries themselves to check its accurate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 8:09:09 GMT
Thanks Ricco, yes I leave the inverter on all the time, although the only mains appliance (sometimes) left on is the fridge. I dont have a TV at the moment. The previous owner's advice was that he just left the inverter on at all times, so I stuck to that. I guess my thinking was that if I start the evening with say 100ah of charge, it should be ok to leave the inverter on overnight. I want to leave the fridge on overnight if possible, as I don't think it helps food preservation if you raise and lower the temperature by a big margin twice a day. But with winter fast approaching, and with me about to start cruising less often after I reach Cheshire, I need to get to grips with understanding and managing my electrics better. Strange, I met a boater with more or less identical concerns to you earlier this year on the Macc. He had this horrendously loud frame generator and was running it for hours every day. He didn't know when his batteries were charged and he too was concerned that he was waking up to 12.5 having run the generator until 8.00 p.m., then used little power before retiring to bed. First, I checked amps in with my meter and compared to battery capacities to establish when batteries were more or less charged. The boater could then refer to his volt meter (everything switched off) to establish when his batteries were fully charged. Next I suggested he try turning his inverter off before going to bed. Result? 12.7v in the morning, and one very happy boater, who was about to dump his more than likely still serviceable batteries. I've gotten by so far with this very lazy belt and braces approach, without knowing any details about the charging, and that was based on an incorrect assumption that 12.4v was as low I should let the voltage drop. At the moment I cant see a way of switching off the inverter from inside the cabin, but I'll look in to that once I've got the electrics figured out a bit more.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 25, 2020 9:01:56 GMT
Strange, I met a boater with more or less identical concerns to you earlier this year on the Macc. He had this horrendously loud frame generator and was running it for hours every day. He didn't know when his batteries were charged and he too was concerned that he was waking up to 12.5 having run the generator until 8.00 p.m., then used little power before retiring to bed. First, I checked amps in with my meter and compared to battery capacities to establish when batteries were more or less charged. The boater could then refer to his volt meter (everything switched off) to establish when his batteries were fully charged. Next I suggested he try turning his inverter off before going to bed. Result? 12.7v in the morning, and one very happy boater, who was about to dump his more than likely still serviceable batteries. I've gotten by so far with this very lazy belt and braces approach, without knowing any details about the charging, and that was based on an incorrect assumption that 12.4v was as low I should let the voltage drop. At the moment I cant see a way of switching off the inverter from inside the cabin, but I'll look in to that once I've got the electrics figured out a bit more. Depending on the model of your inverter the loss could be fairly significant. I now switch off my 12v before I go to bed. Otherwise my t.v. on standby would be drawing power all night, for no good reason. It might not sound like much but every bit you save reduces engine running time. I hate running engines to produce a few amps. It's wasteful, noisy, anti-social, I'll take any steps I can to keep it down to an absolute minimum, while remaining aware of the batteries needs to be fully charged very regularly.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 25, 2020 9:07:13 GMT
Can you tell us exactly which Trojan batteries you have? If they are wet/flooded type then firstly, check the electrolyte levels, these batteries do use water and need topping up every few months. Correct level is a few mm below the filling well. Secondly, the fully charged specific gravity gives a good guide to the health of the battery in terms of sulphation. The sg should be 1.277 (having adjusted for temperature). The easiest way to check is to obtain a refractometer such as this one from Amazon: www.amazon.co.uk/Refractometer-GOCHANGE-Professional-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B01IMTGJBE/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Refractometer&qid=1603616286&sr=8-6Charging at 14.4v is barely adequate for wet Trojans especially in winter, they like closer to 14.8v to ward off sulphation. Of course, if your Trojans aren’t flooded / wet, none of the above applies. They might be AGM or gel. Finally I would strongly advise getting yourself a dc Clampmeter such as the UNI-T UT203 which is around £30 from ebay. This allows you to easily monitor current in and out of the batteries. Electricity is invisible and without adequate test and monitoring equipment, you can’t possibly know what is going on.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 9:30:19 GMT
Can you tell us exactly which Trojan batteries you have? If they are wet/flooded type then firstly, check the electrolyte levels, these batteries do use water and need topping up every few months. Correct level is a few mm below the filling well. Secondly, the fully charged specific gravity gives a good guide to the health of the battery in terms of sulphation. The sg should be 1.277 (having adjusted for temperature). The easiest way to check is to obtain a refractometer such as this one from Amazon: www.amazon.co.uk/Refractometer-GOCHANGE-Professional-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B01IMTGJBE/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Refractometer&qid=1603616286&sr=8-6Charging at 14.4v is barely adequate for wet Trojans especially in winter, they like closer to 14.8v to ward off sulphation. Of course, if your Trojans aren’t flooded / wet, none of the above applies. They might be AGM or gel. Finally I would strongly advise getting yourself a dc Clampmeter such as the UNI-T UT203 which is around £30 from ebay. This allows you to easily monitor current in and out of the batteries. Electricity is invisible and without adequate test and monitoring equipment, you can’t possibly know what is going on. I'm not sure what model they are, but they are definitely the wet type. The last time I checked the level was on the Nene, so at least 6 weeks ago. I'm setting off shortly as I want to get closer to Market Drayton before I have to stop for work tomorrow, but I'll check the level some time tomorrow- but I would bet you're right, and they will need a top up by now. Since batteries and their health are so central to life aboard, and need such careful management, I think it will be worth investing in those two items. I have seen values of 14.8v when I've been cruising, but when just engine running at tickover, its usually 14.4 I think. After getting them topped up, I will also be trying the desulphation cycle Nemesis mentioned, and see if that helps them. What will not be helping is that when I had the engine serviced at gayton, they didnt have a new alternator belt in stock, and I couldn't wait for one to arrive- so that didnt get changed, the charging will not be as good as it should be. So thanks to everyone for this advice and info, it has been invaluable. I'm getting by with the batteries ok at the moment, but my feeling was that they could perhaps be doing better- and I now have half a dozen things I can do to establish their genuine state, and reduce any further degradation.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 9:59:00 GMT
I want to leave the fridge on overnight if possible, as I don't think it helps food preservation Everything I read about batteries problems is the darned fridge. Get rid of the stupid thing. Just roll it off the back of the boat! I don't understand how boaters can't manage without a fridge. Fresh meat, fruit & veg from the shops, UHT milk. How about a water-tight box that resides at the bottom of your water tank that can be pulled up easily? It's bloody cold down there at the bottom (I know, having stood on the base plate at the bottom of ours). I don't use fridges but for next summer I am going to have a small ice maker which will run as and when on excess solar power. It's handy to have something cold but a fridge on all the time is wrong approach on an off grid boat in my opinion.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Oct 25, 2020 11:20:32 GMT
Can you tell us exactly which Trojan batteries you have? If they are wet/flooded type then firstly, check the electrolyte levels, these batteries do use water and need topping up every few months. Correct level is a few mm below the filling well. Secondly, the fully charged specific gravity gives a good guide to the health of the battery in terms of sulphation. The sg should be 1.277 (having adjusted for temperature). The easiest way to check is to obtain a refractometer such as this one from Amazon: www.amazon.co.uk/Refractometer-GOCHANGE-Professional-Temperature-Compensation/dp/B01IMTGJBE/ref=sr_1_6?dchild=1&keywords=Refractometer&qid=1603616286&sr=8-6Charging at 14.4v is barely adequate for wet Trojans especially in winter, they like closer to 14.8v to ward off sulphation. Of course, if your Trojans aren’t flooded / wet, none of the above applies. They might be AGM or gel. Finally I would strongly advise getting yourself a dc Clampmeter such as the UNI-T UT203 which is around £30 from ebay. This allows you to easily monitor current in and out of the batteries. Electricity is invisible and without adequate test and monitoring equipment, you can’t possibly know what is going on. I'm not sure what model they are, but they are definitely the wet type. The last time I checked the level was on the Nene, so at least 6 weeks ago. I'm setting off shortly as I want to get closer to Market Drayton before I have to stop for work tomorrow, but I'll check the level some time tomorrow- but I would bet you're right, and they will need a top up by now. Since batteries and their health are so central to life aboard, and need such careful management, I think it will be worth investing in those two items. I have seen values of 14.8v when I've been cruising, but when just engine running at tickover, its usually 14.4 I think. After getting them topped up, I will also be trying the desulphation cycle Nemesis mentioned, and see if that helps them. What will not be helping is that when I had the engine serviced at gayton, they didnt have a new alternator belt in stock, and I couldn't wait for one to arrive- so that didnt get changed, the charging will not be as good as it should be. So thanks to everyone for this advice and info, it has been invaluable. I'm getting by with the batteries ok at the moment, but my feeling was that they could perhaps be doing better- and I now have half a dozen things I can do to establish their genuine state, and reduce any further degradation. When are you expecting to be Nantwich way? I'm now permanently moored at Barbridge. Well at least until I move to Wales which will either be a week tomorrow or 2 weeks tomorrow. I have the clamp meter Telemachus refers to and although I don't have the God-like knowledge he has I've a fair idea, have a Trojan myself, even have spare topping up water, if needed. The pub is open as well!
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 25, 2020 11:25:03 GMT
Everything I read about batteries problems is the darned fridge. Get rid of the stupid thing. Just roll it off the back of the boat! I don't understand how boaters can't manage without a fridge. Fresh meat, fruit & veg from the shops, UHT milk. How about a water-tight box that resides at the bottom of your water tank that can be pulled up easily? It's bloody cold down there at the bottom (I know, having stood on the base plate at the bottom of ours). I don't use fridges but for next summer I am going to have a small ice maker which will run as and when on excess solar power. It's handy to have something cold but a fridge on all the time is wrong approach on an off grid boat in my opinion. A fridge uses about 35Ah in 24 hrs, which doesn’t seem a lot to me. Once I get my lovely Lithiums installed, and with our power generation capability, that equates to about 15 mins engine running time per day, which I would say is well worth the ability to have ice and Magnums instantly available, chilled Cava, Peroni etc.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 13:26:41 GMT
I'm not sure what model they are, but they are definitely the wet type. The last time I checked the level was on the Nene, so at least 6 weeks ago. I'm setting off shortly as I want to get closer to Market Drayton before I have to stop for work tomorrow, but I'll check the level some time tomorrow- but I would bet you're right, and they will need a top up by now. Since batteries and their health are so central to life aboard, and need such careful management, I think it will be worth investing in those two items. I have seen values of 14.8v when I've been cruising, but when just engine running at tickover, its usually 14.4 I think. After getting them topped up, I will also be trying the desulphation cycle Nemesis mentioned, and see if that helps them. What will not be helping is that when I had the engine serviced at gayton, they didnt have a new alternator belt in stock, and I couldn't wait for one to arrive- so that didnt get changed, the charging will not be as good as it should be. So thanks to everyone for this advice and info, it has been invaluable. I'm getting by with the batteries ok at the moment, but my feeling was that they could perhaps be doing better- and I now have half a dozen things I can do to establish their genuine state, and reduce any further degradation. When are you expecting to be Nantwich way? I'm now permanently moored at Barbridge. Well at least until I move to Wales which will either be a week tomorrow or 2 weeks tomorrow. I have the clamp meter Telemachus refers to and although I don't have the God-like knowledge he has I've a fair idea, have a Trojan myself, even have spare topping up water, if needed. The pub is open as well! Cheers Ricco, I've got some stop days this coming week, but my plan is to get past Market Drayton by maybe Weds, and then on to Nantwich area probably with a few days of that. It does depend what days I have to stop, also tbh if its going to p*ss down all day, I might not bother moving. With that said, there was a huge fishing match setting up all around me this morning, with the nearby guys talking very loudly to be heard by each other, so I buggered off pronto, rain or not. I'll keep you posted as I get nearer, but it certainly won't be much longer than a week, so I'll make it before you head for Wales. I'm actually toying with the idea of doing a bit of the Llangollen for a few days before I head further north, but not sure yet. It'll be great to meet up with a few of what I've started to think of as "The Cheshire Set"
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Post by lollygagger on Oct 25, 2020 13:33:18 GMT
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 25, 2020 13:40:40 GMT
600 Ah at 12v. Well, with lithiums you get more like 13v. I think those power monitoring gadgets are reasonably accurate, after all you don’t really need great accuracy. Yes you can supplement battery charging with a Travelpower and charger. We have a Combi so any time the TravelPower is on, the Combi is in charger mode. But of course with lead acid batteries you can be limited by what the batteries will take. We have a 100A charger built into the Combi and a 175A alternator. But the LA batteries can’t take that sort of current. But the lithiums will be able to, so I should be able to charge at 275A at least for a while (before the alternator gets too hot) so to put in 35 Ah (1 fridge-day) should only take 8 minutes of engine running time.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 25, 2020 14:22:43 GMT
So I can let them go down to 12.2v? Thanks bodger. The previous owner seemed fairly well-informed about these sorts of issues, and it is odd that he should write down these values incorrectly, but it looks like he has. I'll try using 12.2 as the 50% discharge point, and see how things go. ...the questions to be answered are, what is the battery voltage with the engine still running, near the end of the 6 hours, and what is the charging current? Without those two pieces of info it is impossible to know whether the batteries are being charged properly. To Tony: An easy start. Buy a multimeter. There's plenty on the web about how to use it.
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Post by Telemachus on Oct 25, 2020 14:36:56 GMT
...the questions to be answered are, what is the battery voltage with the engine still running, near the end of the 6 hours, and what is the charging current? Without those two pieces of info it is impossible to know whether the batteries are being charged properly. To Tony: An easy start. Buy a multimeter. There's plenty on the web about how to use it. Don’t buy a normal multimeter, buy a DC clamp meter (that also does voltage, of course).
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Post by lollygagger on Oct 25, 2020 14:45:25 GMT
600 Ah at 12v. Well, with lithiums you get more like 13v. I think those power monitoring gadgets are reasonably accurate, after all you don’t really need great accuracy. Yes you can supplement battery charging with a Travelpower and charger. We have a Combi so any time the TravelPower is on, the Combi is in charger mode. But of course with lead acid batteries you can be limited by what the batteries will take. We have a 100A charger built into the Combi and a 175A alternator. But the LA batteries can’t take that sort of current. But the lithiums will be able to, so I should be able to charge at 275A at least for a while (before the alternator gets too hot) so to put in 35 Ah (1 fridge-day) should only take 8 minutes of engine running time. Thank you. To be clear, we will be swapping to lithium. It's expensive initially but the convenience of quick charging alone makes it the obvious choice. Is it sensible in reality to hit them with 275A? You must have hefty wiring or you're pulling my leg.
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