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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2016 11:52:05 GMT
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Post by sbg on Nov 3, 2016 12:38:30 GMT
Some of my wife's friends are deeply socialist, heavily pro-EU and flatly refuse to acknowledge that the Referendum was a tangible result, and an expression of the views of the British People. They do great work (some in the Jungle at Calais) but they are adamant that the Referendum produced the "wrong result" and are probably now cheering from the rooftops that the Government has to go to the House to approve Article 50 (appeals notwithstanding) as of course, most of the MPs back Remain so the pro-EU bunch think they will get a stall or reversal. My concern is that if they are right, what do they think will happen next? Will the 17 million people who voted "out" just roll over? I think not...
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Post by peterboat on Nov 3, 2016 12:50:02 GMT
UKIP has the answer. But I for one think that the shit is going to hit the fan, however it will be in the supreme court and the Government is confident that they will win fingers crossed
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Post by bodger on Nov 3, 2016 13:25:43 GMT
I predict that we will still be in the EU in 2020.
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Post by kris on Nov 3, 2016 14:15:29 GMT
I did say months ago that they wouldn't let us leave Europe. I lived in Ireland when the referendum on the Lisbon treaty was held, they had to have another go as they got the wrong answer first time.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 3, 2016 14:56:55 GMT
We voted to leave, so if we don't leave then I think it's fair to say that any pretence that we live in a democracy is over for once and for all.
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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 3, 2016 15:28:27 GMT
Rather than the slogan Brexit means Brexit, I suppose it has now been changed to Brexit what Brexit. The political elites have never excepted the will of the people and will do everything in their power to stop us leaving the EU. Perhaps it is time for Madame Guillotine to make an appearance. First for the chop would be the remoaners who are constantly telling me I did not know what I was voting for. My prediction for the future, there may be trouble ahead. A civil war would sort this out quickly. Time for the Celts to sweep down from the North and cleanse the whole country. Just kidding - they can't even build a stupid tram system in Edinburgh! We have an axe under our bed at home, and one under the bed on the boat. We also own several pairs of Fiskars scissors. And two anti-vandal keys!
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Post by naughtyfox on Nov 3, 2016 15:44:17 GMT
Private Eye 28 Oct - 10 Nov page 11: GBP 851,000 Deficit in Ukip accounts for last year as it approached what leading figures call 'death spiral' and 'looking over the edge of a political cliff' GBP 5.4 million EU funds currently being used by Ukip to employ at least 76 staff, which will disappear after Brexit
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Post by peterboat on Nov 3, 2016 16:16:17 GMT
We voted to leave, so if we don't leave then I think it's fair to say that any pretence that we live in a democracy is over for once and for all. Ian duncan Smith said this today MPs voted on this and passed it so it is the law that it will be implemented and he is confident that the Supreme court will uphold the will of the people and the will of parliment. Of course the remoaners will be crowing about the victory but not to worry as all MPs have an eye on whether they will be re-elected and a blatant breach of the peoples will is enough to get them sacked isnt it
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Post by Gone on Nov 3, 2016 17:36:15 GMT
I see only disaster from this. A snap election? Considering ALL the main parties just 6 months ago were all saying we must remain, so which party will now say they were wrong and promise brexix if we vote for them? Just UKIP, but does anybody actually want a UKIP government??
Another, and this time legally binding referendum? If it comes out as Brexit then ok, if it comes out as remain the the brexit camp will demand a 3rd referendum, so best out of three or four or five.....
Whatever could take many months and we will have no influence in the EU but still be paying in with the pound continuing to fall as the markets hate uncertainty.
I actually voted to stay, but I think the best thing for the country would be to just get on and leave.
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Post by Higgs on Nov 3, 2016 18:41:22 GMT
This is definitely a test of what parliament is representative of. Do they stand for themselves and the claimants today, or do they actually represent the people. It will be the question any self respecting MP will have to ponder. It had already been established that there was no impediment to holding an either or vote on the EU. There seemed to be no parliamentary eyebrows raised that would have stopped the referendum.
The time to have called on any constitutionally pertinent objections would have been before the referendum ever reached the Tory party's manifesto. As far as I know, the Germans do have such a no go area and leaving the EU is not an option. We have no such restrictions and held a vote. So, we can leave the EU. There is no law to deny that if we want it. No parliamentary vote that stopped that choice being made.
If parliament represents democracy and people, we've nothing to worry about. If they don't, there won't be much point holding elections in the future, if the feeling is that parliament is even less representative of anything or anyone than was already felt the case, causing less and less interest in voting - If your vote counts for nothing, what could be more graphic in illustrating the worthlessness of a vote than for parliament to frustrate democracy.
Although it is not as easy to call a general election shorter than the five year term, it is possible. If Theresa May does this, and with a mandate to leave the EU, I for one would not be voting on party politics, but for that mandate. Your second referendum. Just remember - it only took 36.9% to win the last general election, even with people voting party politics.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Nov 3, 2016 18:50:02 GMT
Some of my wife's friends are deeply socialist, heavily pro-EU and flatly refuse to acknowledge that the Referendum was a tangible result, and an expression of the views of the British People. They do great work (some in the Jungle at Calais) but they are adamant that the Referendum produced the "wrong result" and are probably now cheering from the rooftops that the Government has to go to the House to approve Article 50 (appeals notwithstanding) as of course, most of the MPs back Remain so the pro-EU bunch think they will get a stall or reversal. My concern is that if they are right, what do they think will happen next? Will the 17 million people who voted "out" just roll over? I think not... The type of person described above is quite common. They were good people. They were kind and generous, not selfish in any way. Wouldn't the world be a great place if only this type of person existed? However these people latched on to, and associated themselves with, modern socialism/ liberalism. They did this naturally in some ways, as the language spoken in this type of politics suited them nicely. As well as the natural aspect of their assimilation there was also a 'brainwashing' aspect provided by schools and universities, the media; the establishment. Once fully signed up to this way of thinking comes the second, crucial is respect of what I'm talking about, stage. Devotees develop a feeling of moral superiority over others, others who do not share their political views. They are unable to even contemplate anything that doesn't fit within their fairly narrow view of what's right and wrong. They are good people they feel and therefore, anyone who thinks differently is simply bad. We can say then, quite fairly, that modern socialists/ liberals (remoaners if you like) are the modern day bigots.
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Post by sbg on Nov 3, 2016 18:56:13 GMT
Some of my wife's friends are deeply socialist, heavily pro-EU and flatly refuse to acknowledge that the Referendum was a tangible result, and an expression of the views of the British People. They do great work (some in the Jungle at Calais) but they are adamant that the Referendum produced the "wrong result" and are probably now cheering from the rooftops that the Government has to go to the House to approve Article 50 (appeals notwithstanding) as of course, most of the MPs back Remain so the pro-EU bunch think they will get a stall or reversal. My concern is that if they are right, what do they think will happen next? Will the 17 million people who voted "out" just roll over? I think not... The type of person described above is quite common. They were good people. They were kind and generous, not selfish in any way. Wouldn't the world be a great place if only this type of person existed? However these people latched on to, and associated themselves with, modern socialism/ liberalism. They did this naturally in some ways, as the language spoken in this type of politics suited them nicely. As well as the natural aspect of their assimilation there was also a 'brainwashing' aspect provided by schools and universities, the media; the establishment. Once fully signed up to this way of thinking comes the second, crucial is respect of what I'm talking about, stage. Devotees develop a feeling of moral superiority over others, others who do not share their political views. They are unable to even contemplate anything that doesn't fit within their fairly narrow view of what's right and wrong. They are good people they feel and therefore, anyone who thinks differently is simply bad. We can say then, quite fairly, that modern socialists/ liberals (remoaners if you like) are the modern day bigots. Yeah, funny that. This person has been "wringing hands" on social media and professed repeatedly "my children's future is ruined" and "I can't stop crying". It's weird as she is an intelligent, funny and educated person. I just can't add it all up.
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Post by peterboat on Nov 3, 2016 23:41:46 GMT
Just watching question time clearly labour know that a vote against Brexit is the kiss of death for their career, far better for the supreme court to back the government. I do smile when program echo us on here, we say dont show your hand to the EU and so does the government shame labour want to show the hand so we negotiate from a weak position! The remoaners as always just want the majority to roll over and call it a day, In fact one remoaner was trying to tell us that we were idiots, that didnt know what we were doing because we were thick...................
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Post by Higgs on Nov 4, 2016 23:23:58 GMT
The term parliamentary sovereignty was never meant to imply that parliament was sovereign above people - the electorate. Parliament is not a supreme ruler, beyond reproach. It is elected and its power is power that the people have confered upon each member by the ballot of a general election, a process of voting. By the same, can take away power. Each member is elected to represent people. There can be no parliament without first the electorate is involved.
Theresa May may be accused of behaving in a dictatorial and supreme manner, but it is with the backing of a majority, by a process passed by parliament - 6:1 . Parliament is wishing to give itself powers it does not have the superior moral right to assume. Its indignations and cries of injustice are pitiful. People should be justly distrustful of the morals and of the abilities of our MP's to apply anything remotely recognisable as a function of democracy.
It is using the term sovereign in a completely false way. And detractors of brexit are using it falsely.
Parliamentary sovereignty, as used as an expression by brexiters means - sovereignty over the EU, it is not and never was meant to pass into an understanding that it is sovereignty over people of the UK, and certainly not to give itself democratic rights and deny the electorate theirs'. They are now abusing their positions of trust. Not entirely unexpected. Sovereignty is a term nailed on after the word parliamentary, symbolising a power, once held in the hands of the monarch. Parliament's supremacy replaces the monarch's.
It has always been the interest of the ruling classes to provide itself with opportunities to maintain their ruling position. Parliament was not designed with that weaselly purpose in mind. Both the EU and parliament have that in mind.
We are faced with our democracy being severely diminished by the EU, it is now our own parliament's turn to do what the EU was doing. It is becoming unfit for purpose. MP's do not elect themselves into power.
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