|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 12:29:27 GMT
ps thank you for the green, much easier. I will ignore the sneer that advanced your argument not one whit.
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 12:32:16 GMT
As to your first point, people were lied to, massively, by those who have such great control over their lives, the media. The value of propaganda is huge. The same people who recognise something is terribly wrong with UK society and have been told to blame an outside force. These are methods that have been historically shown to be extremely effective. Ah, so the media was responsible for the 17.5 million (52% of voting population) deluded fools who voted for Brexit whereas the 16 million (48%) who voted for remain are enlightened intelligent folk who have throughly researched all aspects of the argument. The remaining 28% of the voting population who didn't bother to vote weren't convinced by any media propaganda. It's a simplistic argument that cannot stand up to scrutiny. Roger I think you should read what I write rather than make up what you think I should have written.
|
|
|
Post by Albion on Oct 16, 2016 12:37:34 GMT
We were one of the EU 'superpowers' three months ago. Now we are nothing. I will remind you that we are still part of Europe no matter what our political allegiances. We are either at one with the rest of it or at war with it. Your turn. Now answer my main question, which you conveniently repeatedly ignore; What are the benefits we can see now to 'our' choice? I have shown many verifiable downsides but no-one is rushing to the plate to show me the upsides. I will refer you to my answer three hours ago and I quote: As for giving a timeline as to when things might improve that is very difficult for an ordinary citizen to as we haven't invoked Article 50 yet, the negotiations haven't started and so the future is difficult to predict with any certainty, as it also is for the Remoaners such as yourself. That doom-laden crystal ball of yours is of no more use than my optimistic one. You can guarantee that it is going to be at least two years from Article 50 though.
Lisa, Emma, quite how that is ignoring your questions (a comment from a master (sorry, mistress) of that art is ironic) I really don't know. No-one has ever said that we are not part of Europe. What we will eventually be is not part of the EU. These are two entirely separate things. You say that you have shown many verifiable downsides and yet you do not back them up with research that you have done yourself. What you are stating/quoting is just doom-laden prophecies which, as I have said, are no more valid than my optimistic ones until we see what the end result of the negotiations will be. Roger
|
|
|
Post by Albion on Oct 16, 2016 12:51:01 GMT
Ah, so the media was responsible for the 17.5 million (52% of voting population) deluded fools who voted for Brexit whereas the 16 million (48%) who voted for remain are enlightened intelligent folk who have throughly researched all aspects of the argument. The remaining 28% of the voting population who didn't bother to vote weren't convinced by any media propaganda. It's a simplistic argument that cannot stand up to scrutiny. Roger I think you should read what I write rather than make up what you think I should have written. You wrote and I quote: As to your first point, people were lied to, massively, by those who have such great control over their lives, the media. The value of propaganda is huge. The same people who recognise something is terribly wrong with UK society and have been told to blame an outside force. These are methods that have been historically shown to be extremely effective. After all the German people of the 1930s weren't all Nazis. The purpose of that statement was surely comparing those that voted Brexit only to people who are convinced/led by the nose by media bias. However, the media were biased in both directions so those on the remain side have been just as affected. Despite that variable media bias 52% of the voting population voted out and 48% voted in so, on balance, democracy has spoken. It is difficult to accept that for those whose views have not been reflected by the majority of he voting population but that is something that you will have to eventually accept is democracy in action. I am pretty sure that had Remain won, as I expected them to, there wouldn't have been half this whinging from the Brexit supporters after the event. Roger
|
|
|
Post by Graham on Oct 16, 2016 13:25:38 GMT
emma go to your profile, click edit profile on the right, click settings along the top, scroll down to Forum Theme and you can change to a white backgrround
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 14:03:27 GMT
emma go to your profile, click edit profile on the right, click settings along the top, scroll down to Forum Theme and you can change to a white backgrround Cool. Thanks.
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 14:09:16 GMT
I think you should read what I write rather than make up what you think I should have written. You wrote and I quote: As to your first point, people were lied to, massively, by those who have such great control over their lives, the media. The value of propaganda is huge. The same people who recognise something is terribly wrong with UK society and have been told to blame an outside force. These are methods that have been historically shown to be extremely effective. After all the German people of the 1930s weren't all Nazis. The purpose of that statement was surely comparing those that voted Brexit only to people who are convinced/led by the nose by media bias. However, the media were biased in both directions so those on the remain side have been just as affected. Despite that variable media bias 52% of the voting population voted out and 48% voted in so, on balance, democracy has spoken. It is difficult to accept that for those whose views have not been reflected by the majority of he voting population but that is something that you will have to eventually accept is democracy in action. I am pretty sure that had Remain won, as I expected them to, there wouldn't have been half this whinging from the Brexit supporters after the event. Roger I'm sorry, I can't read the green on white..... Only kidding. The vast majority of the media were biased toward leave, not surprisingly as they are the oligarchs of Little Britain - Murdoch:"When I go to Brussels, nobody takes any notice, when I go to Number 10 they do what I say". How about another snip from Business Insider (well-know proto-communist rag); uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10"Democracy in action" sounds fancy but is not, we scraped first past the post so you lot just get on your knees. A referendum like this throws up some issues that need addressing but is by no means the done deal you imagine. A major constitutional change, and don't be deluded that this isn't major, 40 years of law doesn't just go away, takes more than a narrow majority either way. As for your last - Farage was already whinging before the vote that 52% was not enough, a UKIP pollster had already started a 'another referendum' petition that remain voters took over.
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 14:16:02 GMT
We were one of the EU 'superpowers' three months ago. Now we are nothing. I will remind you that we are still part of Europe no matter what our political allegiances. We are either at one with the rest of it or at war with it. Your turn. Now answer my main question, which you conveniently repeatedly ignore; What are the benefits we can see now to 'our' choice? I have shown many verifiable downsides but no-one is rushing to the plate to show me the upsides. I will refer you to my answer three hours ago and I quote: As for giving a timeline as to when things might improve that is very difficult for an ordinary citizen to as we haven't invoked Article 50 yet, the negotiations haven't started and so the future is difficult to predict with any certainty, as it also is for the Remoaners such as yourself. That doom-laden crystal ball of yours is of no more use than my optimistic one. You can guarantee that it is going to be at least two years from Article 50 though.
Lisa, Emma, quite how that is ignoring your questions (a comment from a master (sorry, mistress) of that art is ironic) I really don't know. No-one has ever said that we are not part of Europe. What we will eventually be is not part of the EU. These are two entirely separate things. You say that you have shown many verifiable downsides and yet you do not back them up with research that you have done yourself. What you are stating/quoting is just doom-laden prophecies which, as I have said, are no more valid than my optimistic ones until we see what the end result of the negotiations will be. Roger Use my fucking name you moron, or just piss off back down your hole. That's not an answer to my question, which is clear in scope. I have pointed out much that is very very bad happening; mass uncertainty, no brexit plan, hard brexit looming, rises in xenophobic crime, plummeting sterling. And you just say "wait and see". That's all we hear "We don't know, lets just jump off the cliff, I'm sure someone will catch us". How is it the major leavers of the Brexit campaign couldn't disappear fast enough when told "get on with it". May's posturising? Sterling plummets. Tory jumping on the bigot-wagon? The world laughs. I asked for benefits that have occurred now. There's plenty of time. For instance, who is lining up to invest in post-brexit Britain?
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 14:24:49 GMT
From The Economist:
With a victory for gut feelings over hard facts, the triumphant Leave side has told those who chose Remain to stop complaining about the Brexit result: their victory was slim, but it was a victory. However, those who opted to Leave have stronger feelings of remorse about their vote. Whereas only 1% of Remainers regret their choice, 6% of Leavers do (a further 4% are undecided, compared with 1% of Remain voters). That would have been enough to have changed the outcome of the referendum to a win for Remain. The theory that many Leavers voted as a protest against the political elite, as well as experts, gets more credibility from the study. Leaver remorse is strongest among those who didn’t expect their side to win: one in ten of them regret their vote.
One of the many significant obstacles facing the politicians who must now negotiate Britain’s new place in the world is trade. As part of the EU, Britain has trade agreements in place with more than 50 countries. New agreements cannot start being negotiated until two years after Article 50 is triggered (the legal means by which a country leaves the union). Striking new trade deals is a notoriously slow process and the terms eventually agreed are likely to be less favourable to Britain than those it enjoys through its membership of the EU, the biggest trading block in the world. With a complicated road to Brexit ahead, the “Bregret” among Leavers may grow as the realities of their choice become clearer.
|
|
|
Post by Albion on Oct 16, 2016 14:25:31 GMT
You wrote and I quote: As to your first point, people were lied to, massively, by those who have such great control over their lives, the media. The value of propaganda is huge. The same people who recognise something is terribly wrong with UK society and have been told to blame an outside force. These are methods that have been historically shown to be extremely effective. After all the German people of the 1930s weren't all Nazis. The purpose of that statement was surely comparing those that voted Brexit only to people who are convinced/led by the nose by media bias. However, the media were biased in both directions so those on the remain side have been just as affected. Despite that variable media bias 52% of the voting population voted out and 48% voted in so, on balance, democracy has spoken. It is difficult to accept that for those whose views have not been reflected by the majority of he voting population but that is something that you will have to eventually accept is democracy in action. I am pretty sure that had Remain won, as I expected them to, there wouldn't have been half this whinging from the Brexit supporters after the event. Roger I'm sorry, I can't read the green on white..... Only kidding. The vast majority of the media were biased toward leave, not surprisingly as they are the oligarchs of Little Britain - Murdoch:"When I go to Brussels, nobody takes any notice, when I go to Number 10 they do what I say". How about another snip from Business Insider (well-know proto-communist rag); uk.businessinsider.com/brexit-vote-regret-leave-margin-victory-2016-10"Democracy in action" sounds fancy but is not, we scraped first past the post so you lot just get on your knees. A referendum like this throws up some issues that need addressing but is by no means the done deal you imagine. A major constitutional change, and don't be deluded that this isn't major, 40 years of law doesn't just go away, takes more than a narrow majority either way. As for your last - Farage was already whinging before the vote that 52% was not enough, a UKIP pollster had already started a 'another referendum' petition that remain voters took over. Good to see a bit of humour We have been told that Brexit is Brexit and we will have to see how that is handled but any efforts to try to overturn a first past the post vote opens a whole can of worms regarding our election of MPs and Parliament. 1.3 million (about 4% of those that voted) people made the difference and should not be ignored. Hmm, not so sure that it was the vast majority of the press/media. From my recollection the Guardian and the Independent were two who were definitely Remain. The BBC were also very much Remain because their licence negotiations were in progress, I seem to remember, and they didn't want to upset the Conservative Government on the run up to that. However, as we were out of the country from late April I didn't see all the media stuff during the remaining 6 week run up to the actual referendum. We did however arrange our proxy vote with a trusted friend so, despite being an unintelligent sheep led by the wicked press and media I did get to have my say. Just as well that it was proxy though because with my alleged intelligence I would not have had the nouse to know where to place my X. Baahhh. Roger
|
|
|
Post by Albion on Oct 16, 2016 14:31:50 GMT
From The Economist: With a victory for gut feelings over hard facts, the triumphant Leave side has told those who chose Remain to stop complaining about the Brexit result: their victory was slim, but it was a victory. However, those who opted to Leave have stronger feelings of remorse about their vote. Whereas only 1% of Remainers regret their choice, 6% of Leavers do (a further 4% are undecided, compared with 1% of Remain voters). That would have been enough to have changed the outcome of the referendum to a win for Remain. The theory that many Leavers voted as a protest against the political elite, as well as experts, gets more credibility from the study. Leaver remorse is strongest among those who didn’t expect their side to win: one in ten of them regret their vote. One of the many significant obstacles facing the politicians who must now negotiate Britain’s new place in the world is trade. As part of the EU, Britain has trade agreements in place with more than 50 countries. New agreements cannot start being negotiated until two years after Article 50 is triggered (the legal means by which a country leaves the union). Striking new trade deals is a notoriously slow process and the terms eventually agreed are likely to be less favourable to Britain than those it enjoys through its membership of the EU, the biggest trading block in the world. With a complicated road to Brexit ahead, the “Bregret” among Leavers may grow as the realities of their choice become clearer. And what evidence have we for those statements from the Economist? Was an independent survey conducted, it isn't obvious from your quote? I have yet to meet one person who voted Leave that has expressed remorse. Yes, it is going to be an uncomfortable period but that was to be expected. Roger
|
|
|
Post by Graham on Oct 16, 2016 14:35:27 GMT
Emma simple question, at least to my mind
52% voted to leave. A good part of the population are quite fed up with Europe and its levels of control of the UK. If we do not leave and do not take control of our immigration how are you going to pacify those voters and make them happy?
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 15:01:40 GMT
From The Economist: With a victory for gut feelings over hard facts, the triumphant Leave side has told those who chose Remain to stop complaining about the Brexit result: their victory was slim, but it was a victory. However, those who opted to Leave have stronger feelings of remorse about their vote. Whereas only 1% of Remainers regret their choice, 6% of Leavers do (a further 4% are undecided, compared with 1% of Remain voters). That would have been enough to have changed the outcome of the referendum to a win for Remain. The theory that many Leavers voted as a protest against the political elite, as well as experts, gets more credibility from the study. Leaver remorse is strongest among those who didn’t expect their side to win: one in ten of them regret their vote. One of the many significant obstacles facing the politicians who must now negotiate Britain’s new place in the world is trade. As part of the EU, Britain has trade agreements in place with more than 50 countries. New agreements cannot start being negotiated until two years after Article 50 is triggered (the legal means by which a country leaves the union). Striking new trade deals is a notoriously slow process and the terms eventually agreed are likely to be less favourable to Britain than those it enjoys through its membership of the EU, the biggest trading block in the world. With a complicated road to Brexit ahead, the “Bregret” among Leavers may grow as the realities of their choice become clearer. And what evidence have we for those statements from the Economist? Was an independent survey conducted, it isn't obvious from your quote? I have yet to meet one person who voted Leave that has expressed remorse. Yes, it is going to be an uncomfortable period but that was to be expected. Roger Seems authoritative enough to me; www.britishelectionstudy.com/"yes, it's going to be uncomfortable" - that's it? That's your economic prediction for those suffering from the collapse of the NHS, from an effective freeze in wages and from a 20% drop in the value of Sterling. It's hardly a detailed study. And what evidence do you have? ;-)
|
|
|
Post by emma on Oct 16, 2016 15:15:03 GMT
Emma simple question, at least to my mind 52% voted to leave. A good part of the population are quite fed up with Europe and its levels of control of the UK. If we do not leave and do not take control of our immigration how are you going to pacify those voters and make them happy? It's not really a simple question. It would be a question of addressing the root causes of poverty and dissatisfaction which is a long and painful discussion. It is my firm belief that the EU is not responsible for the major problems but simply a convenient scapegoat to deflect attention from the true reasons. The EU didn't cause the banking collapse, it's not the cause of chronic under-investment in the health service. It's not responsible for the massive asset stripping going on BHS, Royal Mail, British Rail. It's not responsible for the sell off and non-replacement of social housing.... etc etc etc . It's influence on our lives is not small but it's not fundamental in those areas. It's value is one of the protection of labour, of consumers, of people from the excesses of government. It has an overview in investments in impoverished areas, Cornwall, South Wales, the North East. It's free flow of trade means that car manufacturers can set up here without paying to move their stuff around the marketplace, that labour can come here and fill in where we need it; care homes, agricultural labour, plumbers, builders. If you really think that the average Brexit voter from Sunderland is going to jump with joy at the opportunity to pick potatoes in Lincolnshire... The answer to my question is the same whether we have a soft-brexit, a hard-brexit or no brexit at all. We have to look to ourselves to solve these problems and stop trying to shift the blame.
|
|
|
Post by Albion on Oct 16, 2016 15:27:52 GMT
And what evidence have we for those statements from the Economist? Was an independent survey conducted, it isn't obvious from your quote? I have yet to meet one person who voted Leave that has expressed remorse. Yes, it is going to be an uncomfortable period but that was to be expected. Roger Seems authoritative enough to me; www.britishelectionstudy.com/"yes, it's going to be uncomfortable" - that's it? That's your economic prediction for those suffering from the collapse of the NHS, from an effective freeze in wages and from a 20% drop in the value of Sterling. It's hardly a detailed study. And what evidence do you have? ;-) Ok, nice to see some evidence for a change but I will have do much more reading on that site before I can say whether it really supports those previously quoted figures. I have served the link to do further research. The NHS was already in trouble before the referendum so to say that it is all a disaster for the NHS since Brexit is stretching credulity somewhat. My evidence of it being uncomfortable in the future is my own assessment (felt from before the time of the referendum) coupled with the recent evidence of someone called Emma on Thunderboat. She keeps telling me that it is so, and so it must be so. QED. Roger
|
|