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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 0:42:43 GMT
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 0:42:43 GMT
He would need to occupy a hospital bed if he contracted COVID and it rendered him unable to breathe on his own, as has happened to many people. Of course he might contract COVID and not need a hospital bed, we can’t predict whether he would or not. Or is the depth of your intoxication with fake news social media sufficiently strong to make you believe that no-one really needs to go into hospital with COVID, it is all a hoax? Your second paragraph mentions fake news. Many people (the government and the BBC, especially) associate those who do not wish to be vaccinated with consumers of fake news. This is a mistaken assumption. Some of us make up our own minds without subscribing to extremist websites. We might feel we were born free without having a choice in the matter and while we accept the latter we take the former as being the purpose of our existence. People are entitled to have beliefs. Beliefs can be protected in law but most unfortunately the tick list of 'acceptable' beliefs is somewhat limited. And so, those of us whose soul thrives on being relatively free from others telling us what we should do and would rather subscribe to Darwinism rather than Socialism are subjected to systematic vitriol which can border on being intolerable. Of course, this is seen by society as being ok, it's only black/gay/women/disabled/foreigners who are victims of discrimination. A very thought provoking post there Ricco. I would personally try to avoid labels like Darwinism and Socialism though. There is a bit of good and bad in everything, but we seem to have forgotten that bit.
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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 8:29:31 GMT
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Post by lollygagger on Nov 13, 2020 8:29:31 GMT
It was totally predictable that the media would paint anyone with concerns over the vaccination as the people's enemy. I'm surprised it's started before there is a vaccine though. The wonders of modern communication!
While I wouldn't want to be among the first million vaccinated, I'd be happy to have it after maybe a year if it was shown to be safe. By then we'll be in another discussion about vaccine related illness and death figures similar to the "death while testing +ve for Covid" one. The official line will be that the chosen figures show it's safe while others point out that coroners have been instructed that anyone dying with any other condition, whether the direct cause or not, isn't counted.
It's a predictable circus?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 8:56:15 GMT
Slightly odd to post a controversial idea (fear of a vaccine seen as a positive by the majority) and then claim discrimination when opinions as expected, are against you.
Nowhere have I seen any suggestion that the vaccine will be forcefully imposed.
Were I in my eighties or above, with age associated medical conditions, I suspect I would consider any risks from the vaccine as less significant than the risks of covid, and be at the front of the queue.
My friends and family who are in their seventies are all keen to have the vaccine ... what life remains to them they do not wish to waste hiding away.
I too am concerned at the alarming speed with which progress has been made ... but console myself with the thought that if laymen are concerned, the scientists will be thoroughly aware and all available safety measures scrutinised, and the available data will be growing daily.
And in any case is it not the general anti-vacc campaigners that are seen negatively, rather than people simply expressing concerns about this particular somewhat 'rushed' vaccine ?
Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 9:05:44 GMT
He would need to occupy a hospital bed if he contracted COVID and it rendered him unable to breathe on his own, as has happened to many people. Of course he might contract COVID and not need a hospital bed, we can’t predict whether he would or not. Or is the depth of your intoxication with fake news social media sufficiently strong to make you believe that no-one really needs to go into hospital with COVID, it is all a hoax? Your second paragraph mentions fake news. Many people (the government and the BBC, especially) associate those who do not wish to be vaccinated with consumers of fake news. This is a mistaken assumption. Some of us make up our own minds without subscribing to extremist websites. We might feel we were born free without having a choice in the matter and while we accept the latter we take the former as being the purpose of our existence. People are entitled to have beliefs. Beliefs can be protected in law but most unfortunately the tick list of 'acceptable' beliefs is somewhat limited. And so, those of us whose soul thrives on being relatively free from others telling us what we should do and would rather subscribe to Darwinism rather than Socialism are subjected to systematic vitriol which can border on being intolerable. Of course, this is seen by society as being ok, it's only black/gay/women/disabled/foreigners who are victims of discrimination. You have no direct experience of the vaccine, so in isolation you have no idea that it even exists, let alone whether it is safe or not. Every last piece of information you have about it, comes from somewhere else, probably the internet or the tv. So the way in which you “make up your own mind” depends entirely on what sort of information source you tend to use. You certainly weren’t born free. You were born into a society with rules, laws and norms, and you expect that society to provide you with stuff like food on the shelves of shops, water coming out of the tap, electricity available at the socket, a health service for when you are ill, roads, schools etc etc. If you agree to not use any of those things, eg by becoming a self sufficienct hermit in some otherwise uninhabited place, then I think you would be able to consider yourself free. But otherwise as I said, you aren’t. What you want is to “have your cake and eat it” ie use all the benefits of society without feeling a need to go along with your side of the deal. Selfish. On the subject of beliefs, I am a scientist and don’t go in for beliefs. I go for science (knowledge) and of course fully accept that our current gamut of knowledge is woefully lacking at the moment - the struggle is to try to improve our knowledge. Unfortunately it is true that human nature tends to like the idea of irrational beliefs, hence the prevalence of religion in the world, and all the strife, death and destruction that creates. But that is not a trait to be proud of IMO, it should be resisted. If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. The same goes for any other beliefs (not based on fact). Unfortunately the internet age has created a conduit for crazy beliefs to spread worse than coronavirus and for whatever reason, lots of people get sucked in. Very harmful. Just look at the BS around the MMR vaccine. One rogue “believer” created fake news and the idea that the vaccine was responsible for Autism took hold with a vengeance. Parents of autistic children were looking for a reason why their child was abnormal, and whereas a century ago they would probably have looked for the answer in religion, now they look for it on the internet and find lots of false information. Consequently, children now risk not having the vaccine and becoming seriously ill or dying from the things that the MMR vaccine would have protected them from. So if you don’t want to have the vaccine because of what you have read on the internet, that is your choice but in my eyes it makes you look pretty stupid and irrational. I will of course find it difficult not to say “I told you so” if you end up crying for your mummy as COVID slowly and inexorably asphyxiates you.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 9:14:10 GMT
That's a great post Telemachus ... not like you at all . Well apart from the cruel final sentence Just to add, I am happy with others beliefs provided they are not imposed on others. Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 9:18:55 GMT
That's a great post Telemachus ... not like you at all . Well apart from the cruel final sentence Just to add, I am happy with others beliefs provided they are not imposed on others. Rog ... not imposed on other or adversely affecting others, I would sayin . The trouble is that most beliefs don’t meet those criteria. “Beliefs” are fundamentally dangerous because they are used by people to exert control over others. Just look at the Catholic Church!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 9:27:30 GMT
Throughout the world on a daily basis, good works are done in the name of 'beliefs' ... don't you think it is a mistake to demonize all belief systems as negative ?
Rog
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 9:32:16 GMT
Throughout the world on a daily basis, good works are done in the name of 'beliefs' ... don't you think it is a mistake to demonize all belief systems as negative ? Rog No. It is perfectly possible to do good works without bringing irrational beliefs, and their associated negative traits, into it. Saying that beliefs are fine because they are only dangerous if misused, is exactly the same argument that the NRA uses in favour of guns. Guns are a good thing, not a problem, they say. It is only a few rogue people who happen to have guns that are the problem. Hmmm...
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Post by Jim on Nov 13, 2020 9:35:20 GMT
re the speed of production of the vaccine, it's down to our increased understanding of science, the capacity to construct enzymes etc in the shape of the spike on the covid virus, triggering an immune response to that spike shape. It used to take longer because scientists were firtling about in the dark, having to try many options to get a working vaccine. Most vaccines have an efficacy rate of 60/70%, this one is 90%. I was listening to one of the scientists behind it on the radio. The RNA path is one that is cheap to replicate, its a chemical process, not reliant on growing the virus and killing it like polio etc, so it will be easy to create enough vaccine to give herd immunity despite some of the flock suffering from BSE.
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Post by dyertribe on Nov 13, 2020 9:42:36 GMT
How can it have been tested on pregnant women and proven not to cause birth abnormalities when Covid has only been a thing for the same length of time as the female gestation period? Drugs are never tested on pregnant women, the trial would never be signed off by the Ethics Committees. Teratogenic effects are extrapolated from the animal trials which are done. Other information is gained if the drug is taken by someone who didn’t know/ got pregnant whilst taking it, if there is any shadow of doubt the drug will be contraindicated for use in pregnancy. On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 9:44:45 GMT
How can it have been tested on pregnant women and proven not to cause birth abnormalities when Covid has only been a thing for the same length of time as the female gestation period? Drugs are never tested on pregnant women, the trial would never be signed off by the Ethics Committees. Teratogenic effects are extrapolated from the animal trials which are done. Other information is gained if the drug is taken by someone who didn’t know/ got pregnant whilst taking it, if there is any shadow of doubt the drug will be contraindicated for use in pregnancy. On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like. The vaccine isn’t a drug. And you are so last century with your binary gender issues!
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Post by Mr Stabby on Nov 13, 2020 9:47:19 GMT
How can it have been tested on pregnant women and proven not to cause birth abnormalities when Covid has only been a thing for the same length of time as the female gestation period? On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like. Of course there is. If somebody identifies as a man and they become pregnant then they have a male gestation period. Get with the times, Mummy-O!
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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 9:53:30 GMT
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Post by Jim on Nov 13, 2020 9:53:30 GMT
On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like. Of course there is. If somebody identifies as a man and they become pregnant then they have a male gestation period. Get with the times, Mummy-O! Shirley, an fule kno males can't have babies, it's one of the defining factors.
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Post by dyertribe on Nov 13, 2020 9:54:03 GMT
Drugs are never tested on pregnant women, the trial would never be signed off by the Ethics Committees. Teratogenic effects are extrapolated from the animal trials which are done. Other information is gained if the drug is taken by someone who didn’t know/ got pregnant whilst taking it, if there is any shadow of doubt the drug will be contraindicated for use in pregnancy. On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like. The vaccine isn’t a drug. And you are so last century with your binary gender issues! I beg to differ if you look at the strict definition of the word ‘drug’ anything taken in by a body which causes a physiological effect is a drug. Regarding gender issues, I’m a scientist by training, spent over 20 years in the Pharma industry and genetically gender is binary. Socially you can be as gender fluid as you like but except in a few rare syndromes your chromosomes dictate your sex. Where it is abnormal the ability to reproduce is absent.
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Post by dyertribe on Nov 13, 2020 9:54:41 GMT
On a point of order (pedantry) as there is no such thing as a male gestation period, so the word ‘female’ in the post above is superfluous. Just sayin like. Of course there is. If somebody identifies as a man and they become pregnant then they have a male gestation period. Get with the times, Mummy-O! I’m talking science not fashion
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