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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 9:58:18 GMT
Is it possible these days to be against taking the vaccine and NOT be labeled an "antivaxxer".
Could it be that some people have individual opinions about it rather than subscribing to a politicised belief system?
Or is individual thought not allowed any more.
It does seem that social media like facebook drives people into a group-think mentality and attempts to remove individual original patterns from people's brains. Probably as a way to make advertising work better...
The gradual zombification of humans. It's really quite sad actually but never mind I guess it will help with long term species survival.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 9:59:00 GMT
The vaccine isn’t a drug. And you are so last century with your binary gender issues! I beg to differ if you look at the strict definition of the word ‘drug’ anything taken in by a body which causes a physiological effect is a drug. Regarding gender issues, I’m a scientist by training, spent over 20 years in the Pharma industry and genetically gender is binary. Socially you can be as gender fluid as you like but except in a few rare syndromes your chromosomes dictate your sex. Where it is abnormal the ability to reproduce is absent. By that definition, food is a drug. When you eat bread, it gets turned into sugars and transported around the body giving power to your muscles etc and alters your mood (makes you feel less hungry and more energetic). Deffo a physiological effect. If that vaccine is a drug, so is the common cold virus when you inhale it.
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Post by dyertribe on Nov 13, 2020 10:02:54 GMT
I thought that myself, I think artificially introduced substances but vaccines undergo DRUG trials under DRUG protocols I think this is a better definition: www.dictionary.com/browse/drug
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Post by Jim on Nov 13, 2020 10:03:07 GMT
Is it possible these days to be against taking the vaccine and NOT be labeled an "antivaxxer". Could it be that some people have individual opinions about it rather than subscribing to a politicised belief system? Or is individual thought not allowed any more. It does seem that social media like facebook drives people into a group-thibk mentality and attempts to remove individual original patterns from people's brains. Probably as a way to make advertising work better... But but but... If you are against vaccines you are by definition an anti vaxxer. Perhaps your "lack of understanding" is what leads you to be an antivaxxer in the first place. Of course original thought is allowed, but if that thought is "2+2 = 3" then it's not a very productive thought.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Nov 13, 2020 10:04:07 GMT
Your second paragraph mentions fake news. Many people (the government and the BBC, especially) associate those who do not wish to be vaccinated with consumers of fake news. This is a mistaken assumption. Some of us make up our own minds without subscribing to extremist websites. We might feel we were born free without having a choice in the matter and while we accept the latter we take the former as being the purpose of our existence. People are entitled to have beliefs. Beliefs can be protected in law but most unfortunately the tick list of 'acceptable' beliefs is somewhat limited. And so, those of us whose soul thrives on being relatively free from others telling us what we should do and would rather subscribe to Darwinism rather than Socialism are subjected to systematic vitriol which can border on being intolerable. Of course, this is seen by society as being ok, it's only black/gay/women/disabled/foreigners who are victims of discrimination. You have no direct experience of the vaccine, so in isolation you have no idea that it even exists, let alone whether it is safe or not. Every last piece of information you have about it, comes from somewhere else, probably the internet or the tv. So the way in which you “make up your own mind” depends entirely on what sort of information source you tend to use. You certainly weren’t born free. You were born into a society with rules, laws and norms, and you expect that society to provide you with stuff like food on the shelves of shops, water coming out of the tap, electricity available at the socket, a health service for when you are ill, roads, schools etc etc. If you agree to not use any of those things, eg by becoming a self sufficienct hermit in some otherwise uninhabited place, then I think you would be able to consider yourself free. But otherwise as I said, you aren’t. What you want is to “have your cake and eat it” ie use all the benefits of society without feeling a need to go along with your side of the deal. Selfish. On the subject of beliefs, I am a scientist and don’t go in for beliefs. I go for science (knowledge) and of course fully accept that our current gamut of knowledge is woefully lacking at the moment - the struggle is to try to improve our knowledge. Unfortunately it is true that human nature tends to like the idea of irrational beliefs, hence the prevalence of religion in the world, and all the strife, death and destruction that creates. But that is not a trait to be proud of IMO, it should be resisted. If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. The same goes for any other beliefs (not based on fact). Unfortunately the internet age has created a conduit for crazy beliefs to spread worse than coronavirus and for whatever reason, lots of people get sucked in. Very harmful. Just look at the BS around the MMR vaccine. One rogue “believer” created fake news and the idea that the vaccine was responsible for Autism took hold with a vengeance. Parents of autistic children were looking for a reason why their child was abnormal, and whereas a century ago they would probably have looked for the answer in religion, now they look for it on the internet and find lots of false information. Consequently, children now risk not having the vaccine and becoming seriously ill or dying from the things that the MMR vaccine would have protected them from. So if you don’t want to have the vaccine because of what you have read on the internet, that is your choice but in my eyes it makes you look pretty stupid and irrational. I will of course find it difficult not to say “I told you so” if you end up crying for your mummy as COVID slowly and inexorably asphyxiates you. First, my aversion to having a vaccine inflicted upon me isn't limited to this particular one. My personal 'belief' is that the best way to keep healthy is to lead a healthy lifestyle with regular hard exercise. I said 'belief' because this notion is also supported by science. Yes, the vast majority dying from covid are obese and often suffer from other obesity related conditions. So, the best way to avoid dying from this is to go running in the hills every day rather than sitting on the sofa scoffing crisps and feeling hurt and discriminated against be cause someone described you as fat. As for my belief. Actually, the word doesn't describe things too well. Consider instead your soul, your instincts, your humanity. In your case you're gay, very few people have an issue with that these days. People don't understand why but that's ok, people accept that not everyone is driven in the same way. In my case I have no urge, no instinct to sleep with other men. Instead I'm driven to having a simple life where I protect my mental and physical health by doing what my body was intended for I.e. using it, rather than surviving by having alien chemical concoctions inserted into my body. I'm not an 'antivaxer' I simply do not wish to be injected myself because it goes against my core instincts, my humanity. I should have that right without being abused by the establishment 'antivaxer' every bit as much as you should be able to enjoy your married life without being abused for it.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 10:05:03 GMT
Is it possible these days to be against taking the vaccine and NOT be labeled an "antivaxxer". Could it be that some people have individual opinions about it rather than subscribing to a politicised belief system? Or is individual thought not allowed any more. It does seem that social media like facebook drives people into a group-thibk mentality and attempts to remove individual original patterns from people's brains. Probably as a way to make advertising work better... But but but... If you are against vaccines you are by definition an anti vaxxer. Perhaps your "lack of understanding" is what leads you to be an antivaxxer in the first place. No because the term "antivaxxer" is a made up and highly politicised term used to divide people into groups. It's the wrong approach. Too simplistic.
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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 10:08:43 GMT
via mobile
JohnV likes this
Post by Jim on Nov 13, 2020 10:08:43 GMT
But but but... If you are against vaccines you are by definition an anti vaxxer. Perhaps your "lack of understanding" is what leads you to be an antivaxxer in the first place. No because the term "antivaxxer" is a made up and highly politicised term used to divide people into groups. It's the wrong approach. Too simplistic. I find it impossible to converse without using words that weren't, at one time, made up by someone.
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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 10:09:41 GMT
via mobile
Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 10:09:41 GMT
So what are you then? A vaxxer?
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 10:28:59 GMT
I was listening to an interview with Tom Walker, the comedian behind the 'Jonathan Pie news reporter' videos. He was suggesting that he can only make his videos because people are now, in this technological age, just shouting at each other whilst refusing to actually attempt to discuss or consider opposing views. He suggests everyone is encouraged to believe they are right ... partly by only reading, focussing on, or 'following' those they agree with. This extreme polarisation is, in his view what produces the phenomenon that is Brexit and Trump. An interesting point of view that is echoed in @magnetman 's cry of 'can't we have an opinion without being grouped with others'. Just as an aside, I was lectured yesterday about the 'evils' of the new covid vaccine by someone punctuating his tirade by drawing on his cig. Rog
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 11:13:11 GMT
Your second paragraph mentions fake news. Many people (the government and the BBC, especially) associate those who do not wish to be vaccinated with consumers of fake news. This is a mistaken assumption. Some of us make up our own minds without subscribing to extremist websites. We might feel we were born free without having a choice in the matter and while we accept the latter we take the former as being the purpose of our existence. People are entitled to have beliefs. Beliefs can be protected in law but most unfortunately the tick list of 'acceptable' beliefs is somewhat limited. And so, those of us whose soul thrives on being relatively free from others telling us what we should do and would rather subscribe to Darwinism rather than Socialism are subjected to systematic vitriol which can border on being intolerable. Of course, this is seen by society as being ok, it's only black/gay/women/disabled/foreigners who are victims of discrimination. If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. I understand that Xi Jinping is cracking down on anyone who is 'religious' in China. Is this where we are heading? Is it what we want? Faith comes from the heart, not the mind. It's not affected by intelligence, background, race, creed (or non belief), colour etc. Same with love and hope. Maybe the reason we are in a pickle is because we aren't listening to our hearts.
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Antivax
Nov 13, 2020 11:16:02 GMT
via mobile
Post by lollygagger on Nov 13, 2020 11:16:02 GMT
Personal choice isn't it? Generally I agree with Ricco about staying healthy as opposed to treating symptoms with drugs, but that's easy to say if you're generally healthy. I haven't succumbed to any kind of virus for 40 years so I tend to trust my body to look after itself. I put that down to very poor personal and kitchen hygene, eating things off the floor, leaving mud on my potatoes and smoking roll ups.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 13, 2020 11:25:32 GMT
I'm like "A peck of dirt" isn't it.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 11:29:14 GMT
You have no direct experience of the vaccine, so in isolation you have no idea that it even exists, let alone whether it is safe or not. Every last piece of information you have about it, comes from somewhere else, probably the internet or the tv. So the way in which you “make up your own mind” depends entirely on what sort of information source you tend to use. You certainly weren’t born free. You were born into a society with rules, laws and norms, and you expect that society to provide you with stuff like food on the shelves of shops, water coming out of the tap, electricity available at the socket, a health service for when you are ill, roads, schools etc etc. If you agree to not use any of those things, eg by becoming a self sufficienct hermit in some otherwise uninhabited place, then I think you would be able to consider yourself free. But otherwise as I said, you aren’t. What you want is to “have your cake and eat it” ie use all the benefits of society without feeling a need to go along with your side of the deal. Selfish. On the subject of beliefs, I am a scientist and don’t go in for beliefs. I go for science (knowledge) and of course fully accept that our current gamut of knowledge is woefully lacking at the moment - the struggle is to try to improve our knowledge. Unfortunately it is true that human nature tends to like the idea of irrational beliefs, hence the prevalence of religion in the world, and all the strife, death and destruction that creates. But that is not a trait to be proud of IMO, it should be resisted. If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. The same goes for any other beliefs (not based on fact). Unfortunately the internet age has created a conduit for crazy beliefs to spread worse than coronavirus and for whatever reason, lots of people get sucked in. Very harmful. Just look at the BS around the MMR vaccine. One rogue “believer” created fake news and the idea that the vaccine was responsible for Autism took hold with a vengeance. Parents of autistic children were looking for a reason why their child was abnormal, and whereas a century ago they would probably have looked for the answer in religion, now they look for it on the internet and find lots of false information. Consequently, children now risk not having the vaccine and becoming seriously ill or dying from the things that the MMR vaccine would have protected them from. So if you don’t want to have the vaccine because of what you have read on the internet, that is your choice but in my eyes it makes you look pretty stupid and irrational. I will of course find it difficult not to say “I told you so” if you end up crying for your mummy as COVID slowly and inexorably asphyxiates you. First, my aversion to having a vaccine inflicted upon me isn't limited to this particular one. My personal 'belief' is that the best way to keep healthy is to lead a healthy lifestyle with regular hard exercise. I said 'belief' because this notion is also supported by science. Yes, the vast majority dying from covid are obese and often suffer from other obesity related conditions. So, the best way to avoid dying from this is to go running in the hills every day rather than sitting on the sofa scoffing crisps and feeling hurt and discriminated against be cause someone described you as fat. As for my belief. Actually, the word doesn't describe things too well. Consider instead your soul, your instincts, your humanity. In your case you're gay, very few people have an issue with that these days. People don't understand why but that's ok, people accept that not everyone is driven in the same way. In my case I have no urge, no instinct to sleep with other men. Instead I'm driven to having a simple life where I protect my mental and physical health by doing what my body was intended for I.e. using it, rather than surviving by having alien chemical concoctions inserted into my body. I'm not an 'antivaxer' I simply do not wish to be injected myself because it goes against my core instincts, my humanity. I should have that right without being abused by the establishment 'antivaxer' every bit as much as you should be able to enjoy your married life without being abused for it. You are of course quite right that exercising to stay fit is a good way to stay healthy, and that being obese is asking for health problems. Including the vulnerability to COVID. But these are only generalisations. Plenty of obese people have survived Covid and plenty of fit middle aged people have succumbed to it badly and even died. So your health regime, whilst giving you a definite statistical advantage, is not a guarantee of immunity to illness. But you are talking about these things as if they were mutually exclusive. You can be fit, exercise lots, not be overweight AND have a vaccine to protect you from a virus. AND be gay, although I not sure what that last one has to do with this topic. You put all sorts of stuff into your body (via your mouth) without you knowing where it came from, whether it has pesticides and other man made chemicals in it, (it probably does) but that doesn’t seem to worry you much. My distaste for the antivaxxers is less about their own choices, but how the vocalisation of their choice affects others. It is like just like a virus spreading through the population, just like religion, and neither of those went well!
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 11:32:03 GMT
If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. I understand that Xi Jinping is cracking down on anyone who is 'religious' in China. Is this where we are heading? Is it what we want? Faith comes from the heart, not the mind. It's not affected by intelligence, background, race, creed (or non belief), colour etc. Same with love and hope. Maybe the reason we are in a pickle is because we aren't listening to our hearts. Err no, blood comes from the heart (when you stab it, anyway), not faith. By your opinion, if I had a heart transplant from some religious nutter I would become religious myself? I don’t think so. Faith, love, hope etc are all inventions of the human brain. Get over it, we are nothing special just a species with an overdeveloped sense of self importance.
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Post by Telemachus on Nov 13, 2020 11:34:34 GMT
If I had my way, all religions would be banned, and the world would be a much better place for it. I understand that Xi Jinping is cracking down on anyone who is 'religious' in China. Is this where we are heading? Is it what we want? Faith comes from the heart, not the mind. It's not affected by intelligence, background, race, creed (or non belief), colour etc. Same with love and hope. Maybe the reason we are in a pickle is because we aren't listening to our hearts. Yes. And I have a stethoscope for listening to my heart.
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