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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 21:06:05 GMT
A genuine well done from me.
On your point about deaths, it isn't just about deaths it is as much about maintaining care (from the NHS) when you really need it.
....and there lies the elephant in the room. All those operations , treatments and scans held off. All those who have reduced immunity due to stress and over cleanliness. All those who can't cope due to lost income, jobs, buisnesses, homes and not seeing loved ones when they needed love. The NHS may end up with a tidal wave after the ebb off this. I trust nature far more than those with vested financial interests.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 21:29:33 GMT
A genuine well done from me.
On your point about deaths, it isn't just about deaths it is as much about maintaining care (from the NHS) when you really need it.
....and there lies the elephant in the room. All those operations , treatments and scans held off. All those who have reduced immunity due to stress and over cleanliness. All those who can't cope due to lost income, jobs, buisnesses, homes and not seeing loved ones when they needed love. The NHS may end up with a tidal wave after the ebb off this. I trust nature far more than those with vested financial interests. I was refering to needing the NHS NOW! I know we haven't got to that point now and I hope we won't.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 21:47:34 GMT
....and there lies the elephant in the room. All those operations , treatments and scans held off. All those who have reduced immunity due to stress and over cleanliness. All those who can't cope due to lost income, jobs, buisnesses, homes and not seeing loved ones when they needed love. The NHS may end up with a tidal wave after the ebb off this. I trust nature far more than those with vested financial interests. I know we haven't got to that point now and I hope we won't. Well no, we haven't got to that point now, but millions of people are suffering NOW from the measures, not thousands. I agree, lets hope the overall death figures don't go into the millions next year due to greed. PS Then again I suppose they could always blame it on another nasty strain of virus....
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 21:56:35 GMT
I know we haven't got to that point now and I hope we won't. Well no, we haven't got to that point now, but millions of people are suffering NOW from the measures, not thousands. I agree, lets hope the overall death figures don't go into the millions next year due to greed. PS Then again I suppose they could always blame it on another nasty strain of virus.... The death figure will never be in the millions (whether from greed or not) for the UK.
Was going to give you a t*** but I'll leave the conversation instead.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 21, 2020 22:36:49 GMT
Jan-19 Feb-19 Mar-19 Apr-19 May-19 Jun-19 Jul-19 Aug-19 Sep-19 Oct-19 Nov-19 Dec-19 53,910 45,795 43,944 44,121 44,389 38,603 42,308 38,843 40,011 46,238 45,219 47,460 Jan-203 Feb-203 Mar-203 Apr-203 May-203 Jun-203 Jul-203 Aug-203 Sep-203 Oct-203 56,706 43,653 49,723 88,153 52,374 42,624 40,780 37,187 42,500 46,296 From a overall "deaths" perspective - the only really striking increase was the April spike - when I suppose, the most vulnerable groups ... possibly already on borrowed time pegged it. I'm honestly not saying it's not horrible, genuine and serious but from a "global pandemic" perspective the increase in deaths (with exception of April) doesn't really tally with the hysteria surrounding it. On a tangent - walking back along the towpath just now from picking up a click and collect, I came a cross an unconscious chap laying on the towpath - shopping bags strewn around him and a cyclist heading off the other direction. As I was getting out my phone to call for help (checking his pulse he was alive) I was just about to despair at the cyclist that had gone by when he came back to say he'd already called for help and the ambulance had just arrived around the corner ...The chap has just been carted off still unconscious in the ambulance with blue lights - didn't look like a druggie sort ... I hope he's ok but I suppose I'll never know unless I bump into the cyclist again. So does this mean that the virus is all a hoax, or does it mean that the pretty severe restrictions we have had to endure for the past 9 months have achieved their goal? The important question to ask is what would the death rate have been if we had all just carried on as normal.
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Post by Telemachus on Dec 21, 2020 22:38:21 GMT
Chris Whitty stated at one of the briefings that the average length of time from admission to hospital to death was ten days. Rog Yes, but typically one gets infected, no symptoms for a week, then struggles on for a couple of weeks and only go to hospital in the later stages of the illness. So it’s likely to be well over a month between getting the infection and dying.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 22:43:22 GMT
Jan-19 Feb-19 Mar-19 Apr-19 May-19 Jun-19 Jul-19 Aug-19 Sep-19 Oct-19 Nov-19 Dec-19 53,910 45,795 43,944 44,121 44,389 38,603 42,308 38,843 40,011 46,238 45,219 47,460 Jan-203 Feb-203 Mar-203 Apr-203 May-203 Jun-203 Jul-203 Aug-203 Sep-203 Oct-203 56,706 43,653 49,723 88,153 52,374 42,624 40,780 37,187 42,500 46,296 From a overall "deaths" perspective - the only really striking increase was the April spike - when I suppose, the most vulnerable groups ... possibly already on borrowed time pegged it. I'm honestly not saying it's not horrible, genuine and serious but from a "global pandemic" perspective the increase in deaths (with exception of April) doesn't really tally with the hysteria surrounding it. On a tangent - walking back along the towpath just now from picking up a click and collect, I came a cross an unconscious chap laying on the towpath - shopping bags strewn around him and a cyclist heading off the other direction. As I was getting out my phone to call for help (checking his pulse he was alive) I was just about to despair at the cyclist that had gone by when he came back to say he'd already called for help and the ambulance had just arrived around the corner ...The chap has just been carted off still unconscious in the ambulance with blue lights - didn't look like a druggie sort ... I hope he's ok but I suppose I'll never know unless I bump into the cyclist again. The important question to ask is what would the death rate have been if we had all just carried on as normal. Exactly. This is where I stand with it. Not surprisingly, nobody has an answer.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 23:22:21 GMT
Jan-19 Feb-19 Mar-19 Apr-19 May-19 Jun-19 Jul-19 Aug-19 Sep-19 Oct-19 Nov-19 Dec-19 53,910 45,795 43,944 44,121 44,389 38,603 42,308 38,843 40,011 46,238 45,219 47,460 Jan-203 Feb-203 Mar-203 Apr-203 May-203 Jun-203 Jul-203 Aug-203 Sep-203 Oct-203 56,706 43,653 49,723 88,153 52,374 42,624 40,780 37,187 42,500 46,296 From a overall "deaths" perspective - the only really striking increase was the April spike - when I suppose, the most vulnerable groups ... possibly already on borrowed time pegged it. I'm honestly not saying it's not horrible, genuine and serious but from a "global pandemic" perspective the increase in deaths (with exception of April) doesn't really tally with the hysteria surrounding it. On a tangent - walking back along the towpath just now from picking up a click and collect, I came a cross an unconscious chap laying on the towpath - shopping bags strewn around him and a cyclist heading off the other direction. As I was getting out my phone to call for help (checking his pulse he was alive) I was just about to despair at the cyclist that had gone by when he came back to say he'd already called for help and the ambulance had just arrived around the corner ...The chap has just been carted off still unconscious in the ambulance with blue lights - didn't look like a druggie sort ... I hope he's ok but I suppose I'll never know unless I bump into the cyclist again. So does this mean that the virus is all a hoax.. Binary thinking...
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Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2020 23:27:21 GMT
The important question to ask is what would the death rate have been if we had all just carried on as normal. Exactly. This is where I stand with it. Not surprisingly, nobody has an answer. No, you are correct. Nobody, including Hancock and SAGE have much of a a clue. As I keep saying, nature has been around a lot longer than us.... On a plus side, lots of good stuff is coming out of this. Maybe those are the bits to hang onto. I really hope good will come out of this.
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Post by JohnV on Dec 22, 2020 6:58:06 GMT
Exactly. This is where I stand with it. Not surprisingly, nobody has an answer. No, you are correct. Nobody, including Hancock and SAGE have much of a a clue. As I keep saying, nature has been around a lot longer than us.... On a plus side, lots of good stuff is coming out of this. Maybe those are the bits to hang onto. I really hope good will come out of this.Hmmmmm .................................................... I really hope that I and those I love/like/respect come out of this
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Post by patty on Dec 22, 2020 7:12:00 GMT
Sweden who did not put in place the tough measures has paid a price and they are not as population dense as us.. I would not like to consider the consequences here of that approach They r blaming Gov now for not doing it soon enough/not getting it right etc.. I cannot think what state our NHS would be in.
As John says...I want all those I love, care about and respect to get through this...
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Post by quaysider on Dec 22, 2020 7:22:25 GMT
I am not at any stage saying it's a hoax... it clearly isn't...
It's just not a massive a risk to the majority of the population - it's REAL risk is to (as has been stated since day 1) Medical services/care providers.
I'm doing as "advised" and following "sensible guidance" like any other member of society should be - BUT plain talking ... PLEADING if needs be with the masses to spell it out in simple terms that not EVERYONE'S Granny will snuff it if she gets it... but if/when hospitals get over loaded then more WILL.
My "grievance" for want of better terminology is just with the Hysteria/self-protectionism and all this inner belief that humans have a "right" to live as long as possible - regardless of the quality of that life.
The poor beggars in homes - just waiting to die, are being kept alive for the income stream they generate.
I for one hope - pray to whatever there might be, that rather than spend the last 5 years (maybe more) of my life with dementia, sitting in my own excretions in a nappy, "something/someone comes along and ends it before hand.
We are all going in circles (as are governments cause no one wants to admit not one of us knows what is the RIGHT way to tackle it_) I suspect like France/Italy Boris wants nothing more than to issue a command to the armed forces to patrol streets with guns to keep folks inside - lets face it "rolling out the army to perform mass testing in schools in January" pretty much gets feet on the ground nationwide for WHEN it comes to that.
I truthfully don't want anyone to suffer but that mind set has applied PRE covid anyway. My bee in my bonnet I suppose falls back at the feet of the poor oldies (like my mam was) with dementia and their bodies willingness to keep them alive but the walking dead, thus allowing them to be milked for every penny "someone" can make from them - WITHOUT thinking about THEM.
New Zealand (in regards Euthanasia) has finally had the balls to tackle that one... my dad has said all along, if we'd voted on that instead of Brexit, Covid would have been MUCH less of an issue.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2020 8:38:26 GMT
Chris Whitty stated at one of the briefings that the average length of time from admission to hospital to death was ten days. Rog Yes, but typically one gets infected, no symptoms for a week, then struggles on for a couple of weeks and only go to hospital in the later stages of the illness. So it’s likely to be well over a month between getting the infection and dying. Again, the incubation period is said to be 10 to 14 days ... added together that suggests 24 days from symptoms to death in the most extreme cases. Like you, I'm sure the restrictions have had a positive affect on the virus spread, but how devastating have they been in other areas and will history show it to have been a price worth paying ? The NHS backlogs have, in most areas, been caused by over caution, postponing treatments and investigatory work, rather than covid patient numbers ... I understand that caution whilst wondering if it was the right response. Perhaps making information available, encouraging hands, space, face reactions and seeking to protect the most vulnerable whilst the rest of us accept our own responsibility and get on with life MAY have been a better compromise ... but we are where we are. We need ten years now to look back with any kind of perspective and understand fully what happened and why. In one regard I agree with Mr Stabby ... I do hope this is not going to be the 'go to plan' for future virus attacks. Rog
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2020 8:47:00 GMT
I am not at any stage saying it's a hoax... it clearly isn't... It's just not a massive a risk to the majority of the population - it's REAL risk is to (as has been stated since day 1) Medical services/care providers. I'm doing as "advised" and following "sensible guidance" like any other member of society should be - BUT plain talking ... PLEADING if needs be with the masses to spell it out in simple terms that not EVERYONE'S Granny will snuff it if she gets it... but if/when hospitals get over loaded then more WILL. My "grievance" for want of better terminology is just with the Hysteria/self-protectionism and all this inner belief that humans have a "right" to live as long as possible - regardless of the quality of that life. The poor beggars in homes - just waiting to die, are being kept alive for the income stream they generate. I for one hope - pray to whatever there might be, that rather than spend the last 5 years (maybe more) of my life with dementia, sitting in my own excretions in a nappy, "something/someone comes along and ends it before hand. We are all going in circles (as are governments cause no one wants to admit not one of us knows what is the RIGHT way to tackle it_) I suspect like France/Italy Boris wants nothing more than to issue a command to the armed forces to patrol streets with guns to keep folks inside - lets face it "rolling out the army to perform mass testing in schools in January" pretty much gets feet on the ground nationwide for WHEN it comes to that. I truthfully don't want anyone to suffer but that mind set has applied PRE covid anyway. My bee in my bonnet I suppose falls back at the feet of the poor oldies (like my mam was) with dementia and their bodies willingness to keep them alive but the walking dead, thus allowing them to be milked for every penny "someone" can make from them - WITHOUT thinking about THEM. New Zealand (in regards Euthanasia) has finally had the balls to tackle that one... my dad has said all along, if we'd voted on that instead of Brexit, Covid would have been MUCH less of an issue. The last time this subject was in the headlines I recall a care professional making the statement that you don't care for somebody by killing them. And the reason why a great many are in the home is that their miserable offspring can't find the inner strength to do what is necessary themselves. The tragic example of Robin Williams is the only realistic option at this point in the 21st century. However I can't but feel that he must have experienced terror in his final moments. Even sick animals get better treatment.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 22, 2020 8:53:30 GMT
Strange coincidence my mother killed herself exactly one year after Robin Williams and in exactly the same way.
I don't remember her mentioning him but it was slightly odd.
It's a sad thing to have to do but it does seem to be the ultimate choice. When to get off the train. How can society deny people this choice?
Of course there are many people who believe that someone in this state is not making rational choices but I think they are, in a way.
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