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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 15:20:42 GMT
A few chips showing! Dissing people with degrees is just a not very subtle form of jealousy and inverted snobbery. There is a need for people with degrees (who understand the theory) and there is a need for people with hands on practical experience. It’s exactly the same with doctors and nurses. Which is the better or more important, doctors or nurses? Daft question - both are needed, both are equally important. You don’t want a doctor to do a nurse’s job and vice versa. Although of course these days, nurses have degrees! You totally miss the point. We need academically gifted people ... we also need hands on work place trades and skills people ... and the two are not mutually exclusive. I was merely suggesting that the balance has been tipped too far towards reliance on academic qualifications. If everyone has a degree doesn't the value become diminished ? And if degree courses are being created for ever more bizarre subjects just to provide degree courses for the less academically gifted, doesn't the value diminish further ? Rog |
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 10, 2021 15:21:46 GMT
A few chips showing! Dissing people with degrees is just a not very subtle form of jealousy and inverted snobbery. There is a need for people with degrees (who understand the theory) and there is a need for people with hands on practical experience. It’s exactly the same with doctors and nurses. Which is the better or more important, doctors or nurses? Daft question - both are needed, both are equally important. You don’t want a doctor to do a nurse’s job and vice versa. Although of course these days, nurses have degrees! I hadn't noticed any anti degree bias being shown in previous posts but plenty of complaint against those with degrees being biased against people without but with many years of active practical experience.
Numerical expansion of the degree system has somewhat devalued it. The expansion of degree status into many new areas (many of which one needs to question the justification) also devalues it. It has become the be all and end all as far as many employers are concerned often to the great detriment of their industry.
A good friend and mentor of mine was required to work in every department of the company he joined (with a degree) in a subordinate position until he fully understood every part of the industry. It was many years before he eventually became a team leader.
This is how it should be, letting someone fresh from university loose, in charge of a technical project is often a recipe for disaster.
He also has very little time for some of the attitudes shown by many in industry today who devalue those with many years of practical experience, and has expressed himself within the Institute about this.
Incidentally he is FIET MIEEE FBIS CEng
I can agree with that to a point, but the other side of the coin is that people who have been doing the same job for decades, whilst no doubt excellent at doing that specific job, can't see beyond it. A degree gives you more of an overview. Yes, maybe a non-specific overview but a broader view none the less. IMO it was technicians who had been doing the same old same old for decades, and lacked the intelligence, education and insight to see beyond their daily job, who for example oversaw the demise of the car industry and plenty of other UK industries. They carried on churning out the same old crap, whilst the rest of the world moved on big time. |
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Post by Telemachus on Jan 10, 2021 15:26:36 GMT
A few chips showing! Dissing people with degrees is just a not very subtle form of jealousy and inverted snobbery. There is a need for people with degrees (who understand the theory) and there is a need for people with hands on practical experience. It’s exactly the same with doctors and nurses. Which is the better or more important, doctors or nurses? Daft question - both are needed, both are equally important. You don’t want a doctor to do a nurse’s job and vice versa. Although of course these days, nurses have degrees! You totally miss the point. We need academically gifted people ... we also need hands on work place trades and skills people ... and the two are not mutually exclusive. I was merely suggesting that the balance has been tipped too far towards reliance on academic qualifications. If everyone has a degree doesn't the value become diminished ? And if degree courses are being created for ever more bizarre subjects just to provide degree courses for the less academically gifted, doesn't the value diminish further ? Rog Yes there has certainly been a massive increase in the proportion going to "uni". It just means that one has to look carefully at the course and the establishment, rather than just the degree letters after the name. One of the corelated factors is that we have moved from being an industrial country where we needed lots of people with dirty hands and blank minds, to one where most work is of a more intellectual nature. And another issue is that schools have to spend so much time on teaching stuff that kids should have learnt at home from their parents, that there is hardly any time for learning proper stuff. Hence they need to go to Uni for 3 or 4 years just to be vaguely employable. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2021 15:34:37 GMT
I think you're conflating trade union dogma with lack of academic education.
Striving to improve, gaining skills and abilities and 'growing' within any chosen field is not restricted to those with academic qualifications.
Most large employers now recognise their workforce are one of their most valuable assets and training and development are actively encouraged ... including towards achieving academic qualifications ... hence the introduction of various schemes like the Investors in People Award and Charter Mark.
As with all things, a balance is needed, and I consider that closer to the 10% university attendance level was healthier that the 40%plus.
Rog
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Post by ianali on Jan 10, 2021 15:40:30 GMT
Both our children attended uni. Neither have jobs particularly related to their degrees. It did help prepare them in other ways though. Helped with their confidence, made some lifetime friends. Also had a fantastic social experience. None of this should be overlooked. There’s more to uni than just a degree.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 10, 2021 15:45:43 GMT
You totally miss the point. We need academically gifted people ... we also need hands on work place trades and skills people ... and the two are not mutually exclusive. I was merely suggesting that the balance has been tipped too far towards reliance on academic qualifications. If everyone has a degree doesn't the value become diminished ? And if degree courses are being created for ever more bizarre subjects just to provide degree courses for the less academically gifted, doesn't the value diminish further ? Rog Yes there has certainly been a massive increase in the proportion going to "uni". It just means that one has to look carefully at the course and the establishment, rather than just the degree letters after the name. One of the corelated factors is that we have moved from being an industrial country where we needed lots of people with dirty hands and blank minds, to one where most work is of a more intellectual nature. And another issue is that schools have to spend so much time on teaching stuff that kids should have learnt at home from their parents, that there is hardly any time for learning proper stuff. Hence they need to go to Uni for 3 or 4 years just to be vaguely employable. a perfect example of engineering snobbishness
Practical experience often helps develop problem solving skills, and for many engineering activities this holds true. Some other forms of engineering require an deep ability to deal with mathmatical problems. A mathmatical modeller should be aware of GIGO. A prototype engineer knows that without a decent program what he designs is scrap and they all need someone able to design the real world interface, for that they need a complete understanding of the practical engineering and manufacturing processes only learned by practical experience. Often this person is a technician able to translate the esoteric into the practical
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Post by lollygagger on Jan 10, 2021 16:56:58 GMT
Engineering? Ha, that's what I was supposed to be doing but I found myself having to repeatedly organise different groups of disparate people - Landowner/agent, Tennent, water, elec supplier, BT, Mobile telecom co rep into a field, then work out and all agree on a plan to build something within 30 minutes. Maybe that's engineering, more like politics. I noticed people are reticent to put forward a plan but not at all shy of picking holes in one so instead of proposing anything myself I just asked them all what they thought and Bob's your uncle - given the power to actually sort it out to suit themselves rather than being told what's happening and grumble about it they'd all agree and I'd design it. Without fail the owner and tenant would suggest the best access, the service people the best routes and so on. It seems obvious? It did to me, WTF were they there otherwise? It wasn't what they expected though, they expected to be presented with a plan that I'd then defend because I'd be too lazy to change it - that's the norm. I quite miss work sometimes.
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Post by thebfg on Jan 11, 2021 2:27:05 GMT
I must admit as having worked in retail I/we have employed many university students.
I got the impression that many of them are good at schooling. I.e know how to research and write good papers and how to take exams.
But most of them were quite dippy in real life stuff and lacked a lot of sense.
It might not be a coincidence that quite a few were doing funny courses.
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