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Post by Telemachus on Jan 22, 2021 10:52:45 GMT
But it would be pretty hard for a government to sit by and do nothing whilst bodies piled up in hospital car parks, the earth moving equipment had to be brought in to dig a massive trough in which to burn the bodies, as per mad cow disease cullings. I agree Nick, and fortunately it hasn't happened yet. However we don't know how many bodies will pile up due to the measures either yet. There will undoubtedly be premature deaths as a result of the measures. It was particularly piss poor that the very agency that gets paid to look after our health (but isn’t profit driven), was the first to disallow its customers on site and the last to allow them back again. In the summer you could visit a pub for a drink, a restaurant for a meal, but you couldn’t see your GP or hospital consultant (unless you were on the cusp of dying). Cancer treatments were suspended etc. We do like to consider our NHS to be wonderful, and on the front line it mostly is, but those bureaucrats in charge have no incentive to provide a good service. It is the same nationalised industry malaise that affected so many such industries in the 1970s, somehow is still allowed to perpetuate in the NHS on the 2020s.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 22, 2021 10:57:13 GMT
On the subject of ascertaining cause of death by talking to the relatives, this was also the subject of a BBC report as well
These are not figures that can be taken at face value, on top of this there have been suggestions that the population is much younger (middle aged here is ancient in other regions) and another source suggested that because of the high levels of other viral infections there may be a certain amount of appropriate antibodies in the general population.
All this simply points to people who are playing the numbers blame game are living in cloud cookoo land .... We don't know the answers and what is more we can't know the answers .... we might get to know the answers in the future ..... but don't bet your shirt on it.
I don't think our government know either listening to Hancock and Boris. So do you believe the ONS and NHS data then? It's probably not far out.
There is a well established system for registration of deaths in this country, certainly better than some other developed countries. There is no evidence to show any change has occurred in it's reliability.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 10:57:44 GMT
Do you know the percentage of the Indian population which is not reported? To apply logic, we'd need to know. I suspect you are right that a percentage don't get recorded but to confirm your logic it wouid have to be over 90% of the population. just to put your post into perspective there are approximately 25 million unregistered deaths every year world wide (WHO figures)
This is about half of the worlds annual death figures !!!
As regards India specifically it has been reported that as low as only 1 in 5 deaths has been recorded and many of those have the cause of death ascertained by talking to the relatives afterwards (source The Hindustan Times)
So 80% then? Our figures are still twice as bad as India.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 10:58:24 GMT
ONS figures re covid are based on a core group of 100,000 to 140,000 people and the results extrapolated to cover population.
They do not involve or require any belief system.
Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 11:04:17 GMT
ONS figures re covid are based on a core group of 100,000 to 140,000 people and the results extrapolated to cover population. They do not involve or require any belief system. Rog Well obviously, but I wonder if it involves any political system?
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Post by JohnV on Jan 22, 2021 11:07:15 GMT
just to put your post into perspective there are approximately 25 million unregistered deaths every year world wide (WHO figures)
This is about half of the worlds annual death figures !!!
As regards India specifically it has been reported that as low as only 1 in 5 deaths has been recorded and many of those have the cause of death ascertained by talking to the relatives afterwards (source The Hindustan Times)
So 80% then? Our figures are still twice as bad as India. No .... 80% are ignored ..... of the remaining 20% for many (unknown and unknowable number) there is no medical examination so the death rate due to covid ? anybody's guess ..... between 5 and 10 times as great ? .... or more? who knows.
How can you compare that to the UK where the percentage and accuracy of a death certificate is probably 90+% accurate
There are too many variables to try and do the blame game and to attempt it as it is still going on is ludicrous ....Q-Anon stuff
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 11:08:36 GMT
Of course ... it's lizard space people inhabiting the bodies of key individuals ... accept nothing ... challenge everything. Ah but then I would say that Rog
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 11:50:13 GMT
So 80% then? Our figures are still twice as bad as India. No .... 80% are ignored ..... of the remaining 20% for many (unknown and unknowable number) there is no medical examination so the death rate due to covid ? anybody's guess ..... between 5 and 10 times as great ? .... or more? who knows.
How can you compare that to the UK where the percentage and accuracy of a death certificate is probably 90+% accurate
There are too many variables to try and do the blame game and to attempt it as it is still going on is ludicrous ....Q-Anon stuff
Blame game, your words. So are your guesses more valid than official data then?
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Post by JohnV on Jan 22, 2021 12:35:17 GMT
No .... 80% are ignored ..... of the remaining 20% for many (unknown and unknowable number) there is no medical examination so the death rate due to covid ? anybody's guess ..... between 5 and 10 times as great ? .... or more? who knows.
How can you compare that to the UK where the percentage and accuracy of a death certificate is probably 90+% accurate
There are too many variables to try and do the blame game and to attempt it as it is still going on is ludicrous ....Q-Anon stuff
Blame game, your words. So are your guesses more valid than official data then? they probably are as good as anyone elses in this case ..... statistics are only evidence if you know how they are derived and if they are likely to be accurate. We know that in this case (as with a very large proportion of undeveloped or developing nations with poor health services and poor or even non existant systems for national statistics) that there are likely to be vast range of inaccuracies from area to area and group to group.
Mostly western european countries will be fairly accurate but the exact details of how they record the information varies and because of this direct number comparisons can lead you a long way from the truth.
This is not people trying to hide things ..... (That hardly ever works for very long in a democratic system, there is always a whistle blower lurking in the wings somewhere) This is just the way statistics work.
If everyone had exactly the same system then you can compare them ..... but we don't so you can't.
This is why the saying "Lies, damned lies and statistics" is so apt
Wait until the dying stops then look to see what worked best and what didn't, trying to work that out properly now is pissing in the wind
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 12:40:50 GMT
I see more and more people questioning the death rates, especially those that have lost relatives and friends, and had COVID written on the death certificate even when it was not the cause. I don’t doubt the seriousness of COVID, and I don’t try to question the steps being taken to get rid of it, but the lying shits bumping up the death figures only serve to undermine the whole thing. It’s of little wonder people are getting a bit fed up with the situation.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 22, 2021 12:51:28 GMT
I see more and more people questioning the death rates, especially those that have lost relatives and friends, and had COVID written on the death certificate even when it was not the cause. I don’t doubt the seriousness of COVID, and I don’t try to question the steps being taken to get rid of it, but the lying shits bumping up the death figures only serve to undermine the whole thing. It’s of little wonder people are getting a bit fed up with the situation. I'm not sure they are being deliberately "bumped up" The system that the UK is using (died after a + covid test within 28 days) is almost certainly going to be a bit of an overestimate ..... but on the other hand it is not too disimillar to figures coming from other comparable countries.
per million figures .... UK, 1389. France, 1102. Spain, 1177. Italy,1394. Belgium, 1775. Germany is much lower at 610 so that one is a why? (one suggestion was they had a large and easily expanded industry for testing ..... more than nearly every other country)
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 13:07:46 GMT
I wonder if they will change the reporting of covid in the near future, number of people admitted to hospital for covid, they claim they want the NHS to not be overwhelmed so why not track this figure?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 13:17:28 GMT
Blame game, your words. So are your guesses more valid than official data then? they probably are as good as anyone elses in this case ..... statistics are only evidence if you know how they are derived and if they are likely to be accurate. We know that in this case (as with a very large proportion of undeveloped or developing nations with poor health services and poor or even non existant systems for national statistics) that there are likely to be vast range of inaccuracies from area to area and group to group.
Mostly western european countries will be fairly accurate but the exact details of how they record the information varies and because of this direct number comparisons can lead you a long way from the truth.
This is not people trying to hide things ..... (That hardly ever works for very long in a democratic system, there is always a whistle blower lurking in the wings somewhere) This is just the way statistics work.
If everyone had exactly the same system then you can compare them ..... but we don't so you can't.
This is why the saying "Lies, damned lies and statistics" is so apt
Wait until the dying stops then look to see what worked best and what didn't, trying to work that out properly now is pissing in the wind
....but without more proof that the lockdowns are working, the public will become less and less trusting in the government. They will be less and less prepared to give up their freedom for those who have had a good innings. I understand that Google have reported twice as much traffic at the start of this lockdown compared with the first.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2021 13:27:25 GMT
My office over looks the M69, I travel on it twice a day, I see no difference to the traffic now to November last year.
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Post by JohnV on Jan 22, 2021 13:30:42 GMT
they probably are as good as anyone elses in this case ..... statistics are only evidence if you know how they are derived and if they are likely to be accurate. We know that in this case (as with a very large proportion of undeveloped or developing nations with poor health services and poor or even non existant systems for national statistics) that there are likely to be vast range of inaccuracies from area to area and group to group.
Mostly western european countries will be fairly accurate but the exact details of how they record the information varies and because of this direct number comparisons can lead you a long way from the truth.
This is not people trying to hide things ..... (That hardly ever works for very long in a democratic system, there is always a whistle blower lurking in the wings somewhere) This is just the way statistics work.
If everyone had exactly the same system then you can compare them ..... but we don't so you can't.
This is why the saying "Lies, damned lies and statistics" is so apt
Wait until the dying stops then look to see what worked best and what didn't, trying to work that out properly now is pissing in the wind
....but without more proof that the lockdowns are working, the public will become less and less trusting in the government. They will be less and less prepared to give up their freedom for those who have had a good innings. I understand that Google have reported twice as much traffic at the start of this lockdown compared with the first. well something changed the figures so unless it was magic
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