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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 6, 2021 21:17:58 GMT
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Post by JohnV on Jun 6, 2021 21:19:52 GMT
not a lot
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2021 6:28:56 GMT
Although I'm not working at the moment I keep an eye on it all, and agency hourly pay rates for HGV1 drivers have risen from about £12 to £15 in the last few months.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 7, 2021 6:51:38 GMT
Although I'm not working at the moment I keep an eye on it all, and agency hourly pay rates for HGV1 drivers have risen from about £12 to £15 in the last few months. Tourism based jobs local to me are desperate for staff. Last year there was never a discussion about wages. An applicant knew any job they applied for would be minimum wage, as did the employer. Fast forward a year, businesses are now advertising rates above the minimum wage. £10 or £11 is typical. A rise of around 10 to 20%. All the years of remainers denying that market forces apply to wage rates, that those believing this were either ignorant or pure and simple racists comes crashing down. The deliverer of the message? Their very own Bible. The irony is delicious.
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Post by Telemachus on Jun 7, 2021 6:58:18 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2021 7:04:32 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service. It doesn't do to generalise Nick, it's far from being a given that everybody from Eastern Europe is respectful, polite and efficient. Poland for example probably has the worst football hooliganism problem in Europe at the moment.
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Post by JohnV on Jun 7, 2021 7:10:42 GMT
Unfortunately the lack of work ethic in a percentage of the population remains.
There are plenty of applicants coming from families where their parents and even their grandparents have never worked.
Some of these applicants lack the basic discipline or self discipline that is required to hold down a job.
I don't think anyone has impressed on some of them that turning up for work on time is a requirement.
Personally observed one lad, who in many ways was a good worker but his time keeping was appalling (hours not minutes)
After two verbal warnings and then on Friday a written warning, he turned up for work on the Monday over two hours late "well I had to take my Nan shopping"
and couldn't understand why he got the sack.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 7, 2021 7:11:43 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service. The problem with this view is that if it were reversed, it was non-Brits that were described in this way, the opinion would be widely condemned as that of a racist. I'm not saying I'd agree with this myself, I do believe that different cultural norms result in different behaviours but still, it's very difficult for notions to survive if they lack any consistency. I suspect that the tendency for British people to tend to be the way you describe (I do agree with you) is due to a combination of factors. Being well aware of the cost of living in Britain, the minimum wage is a grim prospect for many Brits. Not so for those coming from countries where wages are 50-70% lower. The welfare state gives choices as regarding working, or not. Some groups, particularly families with children can choose to not work at all, or work very little, without there being a significant difference in their finances. More recently 'furlough' has paid people not much less than they used to earn just for sitting at home, or if they prefer, taking on another job that results in their take home pay being much higher than when they worked full time in their minimum wage jobs. Other factors too, doubtless.
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Post by Telemachus on Jun 7, 2021 7:19:04 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service. It doesn't do to generalise Nick, it's far from being a given that everybody from Eastern Europe is respectful, polite and efficient. Poland for example probably has the worst football hooliganism problem in Europe at the moment. It does do to generalise, provided you understand the concept which I’ll agree many on here don’t seem to. Generalising is about probabilities. So if I go into a restaurant where the serving staff are Eastern European, I stand a much better chance of having good service than if they are British yoofs. That is of course and obviously not to say that zero British staff are any good and all European staff are great. Only someone who failed to go to a proper school would think that. But in a macro-situation like brexit, one has to look at the macro-picture and that is another way of saying generalisations. Oh and as to Polish football, I don’t give a shit as I have never watched football, never been to a football match in U.K. let alone Poland and if it were up to me I ban football for more reasons than I can be bothered to type.
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2021 7:24:21 GMT
Firstly, I think you are more comparing eastern Europeans who work as waiters with British people who don't in your statement, and secondly my point was not about football but anti-social behaviour..
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Post by Telemachus on Jun 7, 2021 7:26:37 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service. The problem with this view is that if it were reversed, it was non-Brits that were described in this way, the opinion would be widely condemned as that of a racist. I'm not saying I'd agree with this myself, I do believe that different cultural norms result in different behaviours but still, it's very difficult for notions to survive if they lack any consistency. I suspect that the tendency for British people to tend to be the way you describe (I do agree with you) is due to a combination of factors. Being well aware of the cost of living in Britain, the minimum wage is a grim prospect for many Brits. Not so for those coming from countries where wages are 50-70% lower. The welfare state gives choices as regarding working, or not. Some groups, particularly families with children can choose to not work at all, or work very little, without there being a significant difference in their finances. More recently 'furlough' has paid people not much less than they used to earn just for sitting at home, or if they prefer, taking on another job that results in their take home pay being much higher than when they worked full time in their minimum wage jobs. Other factors too, doubtless. It is racist, of course. But what does racist mean, other than an oft-lobbed insult? If it means that one is making a generalisation about racial characteristics, then that (in my book) is fine. If one says “people from Africa tend to have dark skin” then that is racist, but true (and stating the bleedin obvious!). Where racism become problematic is when you take a generalisation and apply to a decision about an individual. For example “I’m not going to offer you a job. Not because I am aware of you having any personal shortcomings, but because I think that as a generalisation, people of your race are evil/lazy/dishonest/thick etc”. That is discriminating on the grounds of race, which is bad and illegal. Observing general characteristics of people of different races could also be called racist but is neither bad nor illegal.
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Post by Telemachus on Jun 7, 2021 7:29:29 GMT
Firstly, I think you are more comparing eastern Europeans who work as waiters with British people who don't in your statement, and secondly my point was not about football but anti-social behaviour.. No, I am comparing my experiences of Eastern European waiting staff with British waiting staff. What other comparison could be relevant? Obviously there are some antisocial Poles and there are some antisocial Brits. I would tend to think that the latter are worse but it’s hard to know when I haven’t been to Poland and it is impossible to form a valid comparison from media reporting.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 7, 2021 7:29:36 GMT
It’s good that low wages are going up a bit. What is less good is that it means I’m likely to be served by surly scruffy ill-mannered incompetent resentful and lazy Brits, rather than polite and efficient Eastern Europeans. I was always fairly ambivalent about Brexit - there are good and bad points. But one of the bad points is the inevitable loss of good staff in the hospitality sector and their replacement by slobby British yoofs with no concept of good service. It doesn't do to generalise Nick, it's far from being a given that everybody from Eastern Europe is respectful, polite and efficient. Poland for example probably has the worst football hooliganism problem in Europe at the moment. Has been the way for some time. When I was there, 9 years ago, I lived in a town about 20 miles from Lodz. One Saturday afternoon a brawl was arranged between supporters of LKS and Widzew. This was a big event, scores attended, pickaxe handles were the favoured tool. When the police broke up the event it spread to the town where an evening of glassings, indiscriminate assaults and serious, prolonged beatings followed. It was worse than anything I've ever seen, and I spent 20 years going to football matches in the 70's and 80's. One interesting aspect of the violence is that there was no recall to using knives. Glassing someone is perfectly fine but the use of knives is considered to be a desperate measure, one only adopted by cowards. I guess that's Poland for you.
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Post by Clinton Cool on Jun 7, 2021 7:34:18 GMT
The problem with this view is that if it were reversed, it was non-Brits that were described in this way, the opinion would be widely condemned as that of a racist. I'm not saying I'd agree with this myself, I do believe that different cultural norms result in different behaviours but still, it's very difficult for notions to survive if they lack any consistency. I suspect that the tendency for British people to tend to be the way you describe (I do agree with you) is due to a combination of factors. Being well aware of the cost of living in Britain, the minimum wage is a grim prospect for many Brits. Not so for those coming from countries where wages are 50-70% lower. The welfare state gives choices as regarding working, or not. Some groups, particularly families with children can choose to not work at all, or work very little, without there being a significant difference in their finances. More recently 'furlough' has paid people not much less than they used to earn just for sitting at home, or if they prefer, taking on another job that results in their take home pay being much higher than when they worked full time in their minimum wage jobs. Other factors too, doubtless. It is racist, of course. But what does racist mean, other than an oft-lobbed insult? If it means that one is making a generalisation about racial characteristics, then that (in my book) is fine. If one says “people from Africa tend to have dark skin” then that is racist, but true (and stating the bleedin obvious!). Where racism become problematic is when you take a generalisation and apply to a decision about an individual. For example “I’m not going to offer you a job. Not because I am aware of you having any personal shortcomings, but because I think that as a generalisation, people of your race are evil/lazy/dishonest/thick etc”. That is discriminating on the grounds of race, which is bad and illegal. Observing general characteristics of people of different races could also be called racist but is neither bad nor illegal. If you owned a bar and were looking for staff, would it be fair to say that you're more likely to employ an Eastern European applicant, given your generalisation, based on your experience? If so, would this not be exactly the bad/ illegal racism you describe?
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Post by Mr Stabby on Jun 7, 2021 7:36:17 GMT
In road transport the main driver behind pay increases seems to be the IR35 changes which came in this year. This on top of Coronavirus seems to have been the last straw for many eastern Europeans who have decided that Germany is a better prospect for work now they are going to have to pay PAYE, not least because of its proximity to home.
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