|
Post by quaysider on Sept 27, 2021 6:46:25 GMT
I'm still having problems. I know I've mentioned this in various other threads but even I can't keep up with what's the current state so I'm hoping if I write it all down, something might click with someone or even me at some point. History: 3 weeks ago in Coventry I noticed with the engine running the volts showing on all 4 of my meters (smartgauge, solar and 2 ones on usb outlets) were only 12.5 give or take. Usually, it's 13.7 ish or higher as the day goes on. Assumed the aux alternator (175amp) with 4900 hours on had packed in. Went to Machine mart to get a genny asap as punters were arriving within the hour. Phoned Engines plus to order replacement Alternator and had it sent ahead to Market Harbrough (6 days away). Connected a cable from little Alt to big bank but that didn't work as the starter battery sits lower than the aux batteries - ergo, nowt happened. SO Limped to MH with genny on the back charging all the batts as we went - not ideal but it did the trick using the invertrer /charger (combi) set at 40amps give or take as that was all the genny could power.... had to keep turning the fridge/freezer off as it's mains and on start up, made the genny cut out. In MH, removed the old alt and fitted a new one - along with new belt. New one is 230 amp. That worked ok for 1 day and then stopped. Took boat into a boat yard down the arm and had a nice chap with tatoos and no teeth test it with his meter and he agreed nothing coming out. Ordered a new one again - sent ahead to Braunston Marina, and arranged to return the faulty one in due course. Fitted new one when it arrived last Friday - Nothing.... TOOK ALL 3 alternators to a testing place (via a cab) in Daventry... ALL worked and the chap said how much over the odds I'd paid for the new ones... Back on the boat I began looking at what else could be wrong. tested voltage either side of current isolation switch between alt and batteries and both sides were the same - until engine start and then one dropped to zero. Decided switch was buggered so off I went midland chandlers and bought 2 new ones (they didn't have a like for like replacement ) of a lower rating but that might have been ok. )exisitng one was 300 constant, 500 peak) - ended up with 250 constant 300 peak). All worked for a coulple of days and we made our way up the Ashby. Had a night on shorline and a bath at Trinity and set off again. After lunch Sat noticed volts down again - just after fridge had kicked in during use of the toaster... assumed new switch couldn't handle that. on Stopping, and re-toggling switch a couple of times then starting back up again, it appeared to work. Yesterday, chugged in to Rugely and stopped at Tescos only to discover on start up again, low volts and no output when coffee machine used/frige booting up. SO I made up a new cable as short as possible and have gone straight from Alt to Batteries (new cable 50mm 2 - the old one was only 40mm 2) ... stuck clamp metre on and it seemed to work. I'm wondering if having the Invertor on standby mode (turns on when the fridge needs it) is messing with things .... or the solar connected... it "stopped working again" briefly but when I put the invertor onto "normal" (ie draw 6 amps to be on ) mode, the volts rose as expected and stayed there... with the smartguage slowly creeping up again. We cruised all afternoon with invertor on "normal" and by tie up last night (in Stone back on Shoreline cause I was panicking) they bank was showing 98% from 77 in Rugely. Could it be that even though the alt is supposed to be self exciting, it doesn't do so unless a reasonable amount of power is being drawn? Could the solar be messing up the voltage so it doesn't recognize the drop when say the toaster is turned on? I'm at the end of my tether now and still have a week of this 3 week trip left with punter and another one joining for the return back from Marple.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Sept 27, 2021 7:32:20 GMT
Take things step by step, calm, logical and analytical…
You haven’t mentioned the behaviour of the alternator warning light. Turn on ignition, alternator light must be on (probably 2 lights, I can check if you say which engine and panel). Start engine, both lights go out. If lights don’t come on pre-start, that is the problem.
Otherwise, next time it isn’t working, check the voltage on the various alternator terminals. If the problem is a poor connection between alternator and batteries, you’d expect to find 14.4v or so between alternator B+ and case. If alternator B+ is same as battery + around 12.5v, something up with the warning light circuit (or the IGN wire if it’s a 6 diode alternator).
Photo of alternator connections and engine panel would help.
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Sept 27, 2021 7:53:06 GMT
As to last 2 questions, no and no. The alternator will be (should be) regulating at about 14.5v and hold that voltage even under no load. If the system voltage drops below 14.5 or so (as it would when toaster put on) the alternator should start to produce current. Anyway, it worked before…
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Sept 27, 2021 8:10:13 GMT
Pending answers to alternator warning light behaviour (cos I think the most likely explanation is that the warning light circuit isn’t feeding the alternator D+ connection, which is required for the alternator to start working), this is how that circuit works.
The D+ needs to be connected to its battery (domestic battery) positive, via the warning light, when ign switched on, and disconnected when it’s switched off. But the ignition switch is powered from the engine battery. So there will be a relay powered by the engine battery / ignition switch. When ignition turned on, relay operates and connects domestic alternator warning light to domestic battery +. Not the actual battery + terminal, but the alternator B+ terminal which should of course be connected to battery +. So there is a thin wire from the B+, up to the panel relay, through the warning light, and back down to the alternator D+. These wires run both ways via a multi-way plug and socket somewhere near the engine (the multi-way plug and socket also carry all the other wires eg oil pressure warning, temperature sensor, glowplug power, alternator W connection for tacho, etc). There is also an inline fuse for the aforementioned feed to warning light from alternator B+ somewhere close to the engine.
So my point is that any intermittent connection in any of that lot can break the circuit between alternator B+ and alternator D+ via warning light, which will stop the alternator from working. The multi-way plugs are notorious for getting damp and corroded especially in a cruiser stern. Perhaps every time you fiddle with something you jiggle the dodgy connection so it works for a bit.
Bottom line is to check that both alternator warning lights come on when you turn on the ignition and before you start the engine.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Sept 27, 2021 8:12:18 GMT
I'm still having problems. I know I've mentioned this in various other threads but even I can't keep up with what's the current state so I'm hoping if I write it all down, something might click with someone or even me at some point. History: 3 weeks ago in Coventry I noticed with the engine running the volts showing on all 4 of my meters (smartgauge, solar and 2 ones on usb outlets) were only 12.5 give or take. Usually, it's 13.7 ish or higher as the day goes on. Assumed the aux alternator (175amp) with 4900 hours on had packed in. Went to Machine mart to get a genny asap as punters were arriving within the hour. Phoned Engines plus to order replacement Alternator and had it sent ahead to Market Harbrough (6 days away). Connected a cable from little Alt to big bank but that didn't work as the starter battery sits lower than the aux batteries - ergo, nowt happened. SO Limped to MH with genny on the back charging all the batts as we went - not ideal but it did the trick using the invertrer /charger (combi) set at 40amps give or take as that was all the genny could power.... had to keep turning the fridge/freezer off as it's mains and on start up, made the genny cut out. In MH, removed the old alt and fitted a new one - along with new belt. New one is 230 amp. That worked ok for 1 day and then stopped. Took boat into a boat yard down the arm and had a nice chap with tatoos and no teeth test it with his meter and he agreed nothing coming out. Ordered a new one again - sent ahead to Braunston Marina, and arranged to return the faulty one in due course. Fitted new one when it arrived last Friday - Nothing.... TOOK ALL 3 alternators to a testing place (via a cab) in Daventry... ALL worked and the chap said how much over the odds I'd paid for the new ones... Back on the boat I began looking at what else could be wrong. tested voltage either side of current isolation switch between alt and batteries and both sides were the same - until engine start and then one dropped to zero.
Decided switch was buggered so off I went midland chandlers and bought 2 new ones (they didn't have a like for like replacement ) of a lower rating but that might have been ok. )exisitng one was 300 constant, 500 peak) - ended up with 250 constant 300 peak). All worked for a coulple of days and we made our way up the Ashby. Had a night on shorline and a bath at Trinity and set off again. After lunch Sat noticed volts down again - just after fridge had kicked in during use of the toaster... assumed new switch couldn't handle that. on Stopping, and re-toggling switch a couple of times then starting back up again, it appeared to work. Yesterday, chugged in to Rugely and stopped at Tescos only to discover on start up again, low volts and no output when coffee machine used/frige booting up. SO I made up a new cable as short as possible and have gone straight from Alt to Batteries (new cable 50mm 2 - the old one was only 40mm 2) ... stuck clamp metre on and it seemed to work. I'm wondering if having the Invertor on standby mode (turns on when the fridge needs it) is messing with things .... or the solar connected... it "stopped working again" briefly but when I put the invertor onto "normal" (ie draw 6 amps to be on ) mode, the volts rose as expected and stayed there... with the smartguage slowly creeping up again. We cruised all afternoon with invertor on "normal" and by tie up last night (in Stone back on Shoreline cause I was panicking) they bank was showing 98% from 77 in Rugely. Could it be that even though the alt is supposed to be self exciting, it doesn't do so unless a reasonable amount of power is being drawn? Could the solar be messing up the voltage so it doesn't recognize the drop when say the toaster is turned on? I'm at the end of my tether now and still have a week of this 3 week trip left with punter and another one joining for the return back from Marple. I am having some trouble getting my head round the ins and outs of this with the only connection being a keyboard and a screen.
With conventional (old fashioned ) alternators testing the voltage either side of the (suspect) isolator switch the voltage would have been different with the alternator side higher when the engine was running but not zero as you found. This would indicate that this alternator is not a type with which I have had any dealings
Nick seems to be much more up to date with modern alternator systems (I have never needed to become familliar with them and have no inclination to do so)
However I would doubt that the solar would effect the alternator other than if the batteries were almost fully charged anyway (assuming the alternator is sensing the voltage of the battery for it's control) and again I can't see why the inverter being on standby mode should either.
Conventionally, just linking the alternator directly to the batteries as you have done so should have sorted the problem if it was just the isolator switch. The fact it didn't makes me think that it must be something to do with the alternator being "self exciting" but what exactly I don't know.
One thing you said in the post was that everything seemed to work fine when the inverter was in "run" mode and the problem only occurs when in "standby" mode. Could you not just put the inverter into run mode when you start the engine and back into standby when you stop ?
It's not solving the problem properly but maybe it would give you a "get out of jail" temporary answer until such time as you can investigate it properly.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Sept 27, 2021 8:14:39 GMT
Hah !!! during the long cogitation over breakfast after reading your post and the slow typing I see Nick is already firing answers questions off like a machine gun ...... I shall retire with my third cup of tea, and read with interest
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Sept 27, 2021 8:18:55 GMT
Bottom line is to check that both alternator warning lights come on when you turn on the ignition and before you start the engine. Ah !!! that's what I couldn't fathom from the post, Quaysider said "self exciting" which puzzled me, I thought he meant that it didn't have an indicator feed
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Sept 27, 2021 8:38:29 GMT
Bottom line is to check that both alternator warning lights come on when you turn on the ignition and before you start the engine. Ah !!! that's what I couldn't fathom from the post, Quaysider said "self exciting" which puzzled me, I thought he meant that it didn't have an indicator feed I think he was using “self exciting” without really knowing its connotations. FYI I’ve looked at the Canaline engines, it seems the domestic alternator is a 9 diode machine which requires a D+ feed via warning light to start working, whereas the engine alternator is a 6 diode machine with no D+ terminal, instead separate warning light connection and IGN feed connection, the latter just tells the alternator to turn on or off.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Sept 27, 2021 13:32:39 GMT
I wonder if something might be going on with the connector block in the wiring loom which links the control panel to the engine wiring. If there was a dodgy connection in there somewhere it could cause intermittent alternator problems. I bought a new Beta Marine engine some years ago (10 years hell's teeth) and I went for the basic control panel as I don't like too many worry gauges. Anyway I also specced the big 175a Iskra extra alternator. It turned out the control panel did not have a hole for the lamp for alt no.2 and I guess most people would buy the deluxe panel for a ten grand engine. The lamp was cable tied behind the panel. I drilled a hole for it myself. So it seems possible that it might have a lamp problem but because the lamp may not be there it might not be an obvious problem. Probably not that but I think nick Telemachus is onto something with it being panel related in some way. Another possibility is if the control panel is exposed to the weather perhaps it has got some problems. I've seen a completely nackered "ignition" switch on an externally mounted panel. They don't like rain or sunshine. The "ignition switch" forms part of the circuit for the alternator IND lamp so if it was nackered in some way it could presumably negatively affect charging output.
|
|
|
Post by quaysider on Sept 27, 2021 16:33:57 GMT
I'm just mid cooking of tea (thats dinner to folks south of the m62) - not a lot of time to read through thoroughly but thank you for the input fellas. Lights appear and go out. Today it's charged with the invertor on full mode - and the resultant "dips" only last 2 seconds when the fridge starts up compared to 20+ on standby mode... this might a red herring. Anyway, here are a few photos I took of the old (blue) and new (silver one) - and the current connection... (ie no switch) which HAS worked today...
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Sept 27, 2021 16:51:25 GMT
Ah !!! that's what I couldn't fathom from the post, Quaysider said "self exciting" which puzzled me, I thought he meant that it didn't have an indicator feed I think he was using “self exciting” without really knowing its connotations. FYI I’ve looked at the Canaline engines, it seems the domestic alternator is a 9 diode machine which requires a D+ feed via warning light to start working, whereas the engine alternator is a 6 diode machine with no D+ terminal, instead separate warning light connection and IGN feed connection, the latter just tells the alternator to turn on or off. Thanks Nick, that had me puzzled
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Sept 27, 2021 16:51:47 GMT
Always difficult to fault find on something whilst it’s working! I notice the D+ connector in the first photo looks like it’s not fully pushed home, maybe an issue, maybe not. You say the lights are on then off, which is fine. The question is, were the lights on then off when the alternator wasn’t charging?
I am struggling to see how the inverter in normal or power saving mode could make any difference.
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 27, 2021 17:15:30 GMT
Anyway, here are a few photos I took of the old (blue) and new (silver one) - and the current connection... (ie no switch) which HAS worked today... The male spade terminal lug on the D+ terminal looks as it's been bent back closer to the alternator body than it should be, instead of being angled away from it, and the plastic insulating sleeve has slipped back off the push-on connector Check and make sure that the underneath end corner of (the metal part of) the push-on spade connector isn't making intermittent contact with the metal end cover of the alternator through the sausage shaped slot in the plastic cover.
|
|
|
Post by Mr Stabby on Sept 27, 2021 17:41:05 GMT
Have you tried leaving the alternator on the stern deck for three weeks and seeing if that does anything?
|
|
|
Post by TonyDunkley on Sept 27, 2021 17:54:44 GMT
Have you tried leaving the alternator on the stern deck for three weeks and seeing if that does anything? I'm quoting this to prevent the above post being deleted at some future point.
|
|