Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 9:17:35 GMT
If the Engineer in question (Wayne.) is the guy who I think it is, he worked for Ian Clark of Pennine cruisers in skipton for years and he knows what he’s doing. Whoever it was who went out to Barrowford last Friday, . . it's quite apparent that they were pretty clueless ! Anyone who -- "knows what he's doing" -- would have got the knackered rudder and stock assembly, together with the ramshead, off the boat and taken it somewhere for either repair or reconstructing with a new stock -- a day's work at most for any competent welder/fabricator. Once repaired, the rudder could have been refitted at Barrowford, and the boat back in commission and on its way by now. It's very easy to write that sort of thing down on here but have you done any of this sort of work recently ? Modern work practices are ruled by elfin safety, risk assessments etc. It would not be worthwhile for an employee of rcr (who I agree have some issues and I would never remotely consider using them) to engage in this sort of work because of something happened the HSE would be all over it like a rash.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 9:38:28 GMT
Getting it off while in water -might- not be quite as straightforward as it may appear. Only for an incompetent clown set on turning a simple task into an expensive song and dance !
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Nov 20, 2021 9:42:20 GMT
. . . . . . . . . . . . Anyway the moral being that one can do these things in extremis (eg replacing a rudder afloat) if REALLY ESSENTIAL but it is much preferable to take the easy and safe route by giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.Still missing the point, I see, . . and doing your best to perpetuate the idiotic notion that anyone was suggesting that the owner should tackle the job herself. Remember this from a post of yours on page 4 ? --- "However I think you are failing to take into account the nature of the OP and I suspect she is neither physically nor psychologically capable of doing it herself."As for the nonsense about "giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.", . . boat repairs aren't about doing the job "in comfort", . . particularly in an instance such as this when the difference in cost between completing repairs where the boat was when the damage occurred or doing it "in comfort", is the cost of a crane for a one-off lift out and then when repairs are completed, the same cost again for a crane for a lift back in. In my (professional) opinion the extra, completely unnecessary, cost of two half days crane hire, plus what the yard/marina will charge on top of that, will be the factor that will make the difference between the insurers paying out for the structural repairs to the rudder, or refusing to cover the cost of the lift out and back in again whilst agreeing to meet the cost the structural repairs to the rudder. But it’s not your professional opinion because you are not acting in a professional capacity. I think everyone appreciates that the job COULD be done in the way you propose, but the first step to that would be to identify someone who is prepared to do it that way. Unless you are offering your services and the customer asks for your services (which this case seems unlikely) I think that will be a non-starter. Any other professional will want to do it their way, which is what is happening.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 9:43:13 GMT
Whoever it was who went out to Barrowford last Friday, . . it's quite apparent that they were pretty clueless ! Anyone who -- "knows what he's doing" -- would have got the knackered rudder and stock assembly, together with the ramshead, off the boat and taken it somewhere for either repair or reconstructing with a new stock -- a day's work at most for any competent welder/fabricator. Once repaired, the rudder could have been refitted at Barrowford, and the boat back in commission and on its way by now. Modern work practices are ruled by elfin safety, risk assessments etc. Prime refuge of first resort for the incompetent and useless, . . and people with names like Wayne !
|
|
|
Post by brummieboy on Nov 20, 2021 9:51:41 GMT
Modern work practices are ruled by elfin safety, risk assessments etc. Prime refuge of first resort for the incompetent and useless, . . and people with names like Wayne ! You can hardly blame the man for his parents' action.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 9:57:14 GMT
Modern work practices are ruled by elfin safety, risk assessments etc. Prime refuge of first resort for the incompetent and useless, . . ! Agreed but this is how things work these days. There was an example recently where an EA employee was cutting down a rotten tree and it fell on him and killed him. He was attached to the tree which one would not think sensible but it was a "lets get the job done" approach. Old school perhaps. The HSE ended up crawling over every square inch of EA assets looking for problems and lock keepers now have to have training for using lawn mowers which they have been using since god was a girl. Obviously overuse of health and safety law will tend to breed idiots but this is the way of things these days and litigation will follow if there is a screw-up. Yes it is probably reasonably straightforward to remove and replace the rudder but an employee won't do it. An independent person who knows their shit might do it but even then they would be wise to do a risk assessment
|
|
|
Post by cygnus on Nov 20, 2021 10:01:17 GMT
I suppose one could use a clamp on the rudder blade or somehow work a rope around it. Previous report that there is no hole and also report that the shell fabricator always had a hole seems to indicate the possibility of a can of worms situation. Getting it off while in water -might- not be quite as straightforward as it may appear. Whoever said that they always had a hole in the rudder is wrong. It varied with the class/price of boat, and it gradually became the norm.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 10:13:54 GMT
I wonder why it would ever be an optional thing. it's obviously useful and not that arduous to do in the first place.
Also wondering what would be the best way of securing it if one did need to do this job ie retrieve the rudder from under the back of the boat. If a clamp was used it would want to be pretty strong. I suppose one of those self closing plate lifter clamps would work but most people don't have those lying around.
Or a big magnet but the rudder assembly could be very heavy specially if it is made of thick steel.
I've seen them 10mm thick. That must be very awkward to lift.
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 10:16:52 GMT
Still missing the point, I see, . . and doing your best to perpetuate the idiotic notion that anyone was suggesting that the owner should tackle the job herself. Remember this from a post of yours on page 4 ? --- "However I think you are failing to take into account the nature of the OP and I suspect she is neither physically nor psychologically capable of doing it herself."As for the nonsense about "giving the task to someone else to do in the comfort of a dry dock / ashore.", . . boat repairs aren't about doing the job "in comfort", . . particularly in an instance such as this when the difference in cost between completing repairs where the boat was when the damage occurred or doing it "in comfort", is the cost of a crane for a one-off lift out and then when repairs are completed, the same cost again for a crane for a lift back in. In my (professional) opinion the extra, completely unnecessary, cost of two half days crane hire, plus what the yard/marina will charge on top of that, will be the factor that will make the difference between the insurers paying out for the structural repairs to the rudder, or refusing to cover the cost of the lift out and back in again whilst agreeing to meet the cost the structural repairs to the rudder. But it’s not your professional opinion because you are not acting in a professional capacity. I think everyone appreciates that the job COULD be done in the way you propose, but the first step to that would be to identify someone who is prepared to do it that way. Unless you are offering your services and the customer asks for your services (which this case seems unlikely) I think that will be a non-starter. Any other professional will want to do it their way, which is what is happening. Don't talk such crap, . . my opinions on anything with regard to boat repairs and marine engineering have rated as "professional" ever since I set up a marine engineering business to run alongside my commercial carrying and contracting activities in the early 1970's. Included with the services provided by my marine engineering business from the late 1970's to the mid 1990's, incidentally, were surveys for both purchase and insurance purposes. As for your other daft remark about 'identifying' someone "who is prepared to do it that way", . . change 'prepared' to 'knows how', and you'd be somewhat nearer the mark.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 10:19:47 GMT
Nick is right. Elfin safety is in charge and a lot of people simply won't be prepared to do that sort of thing regardless of their level of knowledge
|
|
|
Post by Telemachus on Nov 20, 2021 10:33:09 GMT
But it’s not your professional opinion because you are not acting in a professional capacity. I think everyone appreciates that the job COULD be done in the way you propose, but the first step to that would be to identify someone who is prepared to do it that way. Unless you are offering your services and the customer asks for your services (which this case seems unlikely) I think that will be a non-starter. Any other professional will want to do it their way, which is what is happening. Don't talk such crap, . . my opinions on anything with regard to boat repairs and marine engineering have rated as "professional" ever since I set up a marine engineering business to run alongside my commercial carrying and contracting activities in the early 1970's. Included with the services provided by my marine engineering business from the late 1970's to the mid 1990's, incidentally, were surveys for both purchase and insurance purposes. As for your other daft remark about 'identifying' someone "who is prepared to do it that way", . . change 'prepared' to 'knows how', and you'd be somewhat nearer the mark. I don’t doubt your provenance, but you don’t understand what “professional opinion” means.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 10:41:49 GMT
anachronism /əˈnakrəˌnɪz(ə)m/ Learn to pronounce Origin
mid 17th century: from Greek anakhronismos, from ana- ‘backwards’ + khronos ‘time’.
|
|
|
Post by JohnV on Nov 20, 2021 10:58:11 GMT
I wonder why it would ever be an optional thing. it's obviously useful and not that arduous to do in the first place. Also wondering what would be the best way of securing it if one did need to do this job ie retrieve the rudder from under the back of the boat. If a clamp was used it would want to be pretty strong. I suppose one of those self closing plate lifter clamps would work but most people don't have those lying around. Or a big magnet but the rudder assembly could be very heavy specially if it is made of thick steel. I've seen them 10mm thick. That must be very awkward to lift. a plate clamp is what came into my mind when thinking on it
|
|
|
Post by Tony Dunkley on Nov 20, 2021 11:21:52 GMT
I suppose one could use a clamp on the rudder blade or somehow work a rope around it. Previous report that there is no hole and also report that the shell fabricator always had a hole seems to indicate the possibility of a can of worms situation. Getting it off while in water -might- not be quite as straightforward as it may appear. Whoever said that they always had a hole in the rudder is wrong. It varied with the class/price of boat, and it gradually became the norm. Proper narrow boats [working boats] , motor or butty, always had a 1" hole at the after upper corner of the rudder, . . but it wasn't put there for anything other than for a short length of line for tying the rudder over/across in particularly short single locks -- such as some of those around the Black Country and Brum. The holes were very rarely, if ever, made use of when lifting rudders off, or getting them back on. They're in the the wrong place, . . much too far off line from the C of G with the rudders upright in the attitude in which they sit and pivot in the skeg cup and tube of a 'motor' or in the top and bottom cups of a 'butty'. The lack of a hole in the rudder of the boat at Barrowford is of no matter or consequence whatsoever, . . it wouldn't be used in either getting the rudder off, or putting it back on after repair, . . at least, NOT by anyone who's knows the right way of doing it.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2021 14:32:58 GMT
I thought it would be a useful point to retrieve the rudder after dropping it.
Arrr you going to enlighten us as to how one does this?
Rolling or timber hitch an the top end of the elum pole then hook the rope from under the counter with the cabin shaft?
An eyebolt the same thread as that holding the taper down would be nice to have..
|
|